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[BTS] Emperor Shadow Game: Willem

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by Xzight, Jul 12, 2019 at 3:45 AM.

  1. Xzight

    Xzight Chieftain

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    Hi everyone! This is my second post here on the forums. I have already learned a lot from everyone and have been told that a shadow game is the fastest way to get better, so that's what I will do! :)

    Leader: Willem
    Difficulty: Emperor
    Speed: Normal
    Map: Continents
    Options: No vassal states, no goody huts, no random events

    T:0
    Spoiler :

    Turn 0.png

    2 food resources touching starting tile so I settled on T:0 after exploring with warrior NW

    T:1-50
    Spoiler :

    Turn 50.png
    Research order: Animal Husbandry > The Wheel > Pottery > Mining > Bronze Working

    Feel like I got my self a decent start going here although I also feel Slavery may have come too late. Moving forward I guess the plan is to start whipping and chopping some workers/settlers and start expanding ASAP. I am looking at a few potential spots for my next cities...
    Spoiler :

    spot 1.png

    City around here seems nice but I will need IW. Maybe settle NE of the corn tile?

    Spoiler :

    spot 2.png

    Wow! This looks like really good land except for the fact that there is no food resource...is it still worth settling here without one? Would also need IW to make this city work.

    Spoiler :

    spot 3.png

    Could perhaps settle next to this pig resource but it's kind of far from the rest of my empire and would be nice to have a city in between.

    Spoiler :

    spot 4.png

    Lastly, I think I should poke around up here and see if I can find a food resource because flood plains are really nice!

    Looks like jungles everywhere so I guess IW for my next research? Also, I assume I should whip my granaries next turn?

     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Jul 12, 2019 at 4:09 AM
  2. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    Way to long turnset to provide adequate help. But I'll chip in on one detail anyway.
    Tile sharing!!

    Your capital is completely overwhelmed with food, and a priority should be to offload some of that more productively.
    You clearly want that corn up north in a city, but your mentioning of "NE of the corn" is completely off the mark.
    NE of the corn is smack in the jungle and doesn't do anything good. Jungle is in many ways way worse than desert or ice, because it's not only worthless, it also add unhealth. Ignore jungle if you in any way can.

    If you go either west or east of the corn, that city could help offload some food from the capital, and it would also have access to the copper or the horse.
     
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  3. Gumbolt

    Gumbolt Phoenix Rising

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    Expansion is too slow here. Aim for 4 cities by 2000bc. Your building granaries when you have unhappiness. 3 pop whip settler with overflow into the granary.
    I guess SIP works here. Without map knowledge the double corn looked good too. With financial trait coastal tiles can be pretty good when you have no rivers.
    Tech wise. AH makes sense. Mining/BW were more important here. All that forest to be chopped. Plus with high amounts of food you need to be whipping settlers/workers.
    IW could be important. Does Hammy trade techs when alone? Most AI usually trade IW?
    How many warriors do you have? I can only see 1.
    Why are you not improving the copper resource? 2f4h is a great tile.
    I would be settling somewhere NW or east of corn so copper and corn are in the city borders. Pends if your capital wants a helper city for cottages.

    I wonder if the GLH would be good here. Plenty of options for coastal cities. You need to explore more south of your capital too. Exploring jungle is unlikely to find you great city spots.

    I agree that 50 turn set was way too long as many mistakes made here already. Game is quite winnable but you will need better micro going forward.

    Happiness will be a big issue here. You have no stone so calendar or monarchy could be important.
     
  4. Xzight

    Xzight Chieftain

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    Sorry, I wasn't sure how the shadow games usually worked. Would it be okay if I start over and play through this same save with you guys and maybe do updates every 10 turns or so? Or would it be better to generate a new map?
     
  5. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    No need to say sorry.

    Same map is perfecly ok! :) About 10 turns is good, but soon you will probably learn at what keypoints input is best needed. (When city finishes growth, when a new tech is in.. etc.

    Did you grasp the concept of tile-sharing that I tried to hint at?
     
  6. Xzight

    Xzight Chieftain

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    Yes I think I understood. I went ahead and played a few more turns to try it out and I was able to switch the same tile back and forth between the two cities. I was confused at first because the tile was greyed out but I just had to click on it.
     
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  7. Gumbolt

    Gumbolt Phoenix Rising

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    I think this map could be interesting. The distant Ai is of little or no concern so this will be about empire management and managing happiness.

    I would stick with SIP albeit normally I would move the warrior first to scout. However we know the map.

    What is your tech strategy here. AH for pigs and horse or do you delay this for other techs? We know we can work horse too. Generally you want to improve resources or chop early on. Roads and mines are secondary to this.

    Worker first build!
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2019 at 7:51 AM
  8. lymond

    lymond Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!) Hall of Fame Staff

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    AH vs. BW is debatable here. Pigs is strong food. But definitely you want BW asap in most situations. So TW/POT could wait. I think AH>BW>Writing might have been best here. This start does not scream Pottery.

    So far you have left a tremendous amount of production on the table, both from chops and whips. You are sitting with Dam at Size 6 and unhappy. Granted I think you just switch to slavery, but a new settler should already be in the queue or out.

    I'm thinking first city could be 1W of the corn N of Dam, and the 2rd city 1W of the Bronze. Utrecht 1W of that corn could share stuff with Dam, while city 1W of Bronze has a bit of cottage potential there, while that city and Utrecht share Bronze as needed. That's 3 good cities in close proximity with good tile sharing potential and plenty of food. Cottaging plains tiles would not have been a priority at this stage, granted you probably should not have POT at this stage anyway if things were done differently.

    Yes, ideally with a Shadow game you get advice from the very first turn. Turn 0 advice involves analyzing the map for settling decisions and moving the starting warrior or scout to best view the map to help with that decision. 10T sets are advisable at first at least, although after the T0 review, one can generally play the first turnset until the worker pops.

    What these first 50 turns you played do for us is give as a good impression of where you stand with your game in terms of early start, so we can start correcting some of the mistakes and misconceptions.

    I recommend a replay here to redo these turns and see if we can improve on the result these first 50 turns. Practice here only benefits you anyway. Also, go forward, as you report each turnset, feel free to lay a short plan on what you will perform next set - techs/builds/improvements-worker actions.
     
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  9. Xzight

    Xzight Chieftain

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    Okay I have started a new game, SIP, and built a worker at T:15.
    Spoiler :

    Turn 15.png

    So far for teching I have followed Lymond's advice with AH>BW. I think I should improve the pig pasture next and build a warrior...what do you guys think?

    P.S. This shadow game will actually be my third attempt at the map because I took all the advice you guys already gave and tried again. I am excited to learn more from you guys as we go because I feel I have already learned so much! :) Also, I was wondering if for a shadow game we can play through the whole thing? I know to get better it is best to play the early game but currently I have no idea how to play in the mid and late game so it would be nice to have a basic understanding of that lol. Thanks everyone! :)
    Spoiler :

    2nd attempt.png
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2019 at 1:31 AM
  10. Fippy

    Fippy Micro Junkie Queen

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    Yep Pigs first (best tile, 4t for improving).
    Then i would improve the horsies as they help getting another warrior, and are slightly better than corn for settler prod (which seems fine at size 3).
    You could build another worker before the settler (also at size 3), they will be very busy with chopping and roads.
     
  11. Xzight

    Xzight Chieftain

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    Update:

    Spoiler :

    Turn 25 (shadow).png

    Warrior built on T:25 and borders expand. Think I will build another worker as Fippy said...is there a rule of thumb for deciding on building a worker or settler first? I assume it has something to do with the number of forests. Should I keep this warrior here to keep my citizens happy or use him to scout in another direction?
     
  12. Fippy

    Fippy Micro Junkie Queen

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    Seeing the timing on your update, go settler before another worker :)
    Still some time until BW, and you can improve the corn 3n soon for your 2nd city.
    Worker before settler makes sense if they both will have important tasks right away, but i think this would not be the case here, while your 2nd city can start with an improved corn.

    Your warriors should sit in cities very rarely early, their main task is finding the best city spots and also fogbusting them (prevents barb cities or annoying archers roaming there).
     
  13. Xzight

    Xzight Chieftain

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    Update:

    Spoiler :

    Turn 34 (shadow).png

    Settler built on T:34 and 1 turn until farm is built up north, start building 2nd worker? Settle 1 tile W of the corn tile my worker is on? Once that farm is done what should I do with the worker? I could move him E of horses to chop for 2nd worker...
     
  14. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    One east of corn is looking much better than 1W of corn.
    It claims another forest and it can also share the horses.

    Moving worker into forest seems like the best thing to do, I agree!
    But if you settle 1E of corn, you should move worker 2S2W, as I would want to keep the forest that will end up in the second citys reach.


    Is there alot of overflow in Amsterdam now? If so, I would want to catch that overflow with either a settler or a worker, but then I would probably want to grow to pop4 on a warrior.
    If then that chop you mention would finish the worker that would be really nice.
    Another worker here is probably best, but if the AI would have been closer I would probably have gone settler before that.


    That is my rule of thumb for second worker or settler first btw...
    If I have enough important things for the workers to do (usually it's heavily forested starts and a early BW, the first worker chops another worker that then continues chopping while the other worker can improve specials.
    2dWorker b4 settler only if enough important tasks for workers.

    This approach almost always leads to that your second city is slower, but your third/fourth city is faster. So if there is urgency in getting that sweet spot that you want to rush your first settler for, then second worker is a nono.
    If you want to settle alot of good spots and don't care which order, second worker might be a good option.
    Settler b4 2dWorker if speed of 2dCity is of great importance.
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2019 at 3:24 AM
  15. Gumbolt

    Gumbolt Phoenix Rising

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    What is your overall plan here. You have no early happiness resources but have a strong financial leader.

    Creative gives 5 turn border pops and double production on libraries. So an early GP if you can run 2 scientists. Early Calendar?

    Your capital only has 5 grassland tiles that could be cottaged. With 4 plains tiles. 1E of corn could help cottage tiles. Albeit if you go early writing cottages will not be important early on. The financial bonus kicks in much quicker on river tiles. I think 1E might work better as Krikav suggests. The copper can be used by third city. It can still help with cottages.

    In terms of third city 1ne of the corn could be okay. This grabs copper, corn and horse. That would include many nice river tiles. Including more river tiles would mean waiting 5 turns for border pop.

    You need to find what land is further north. You want rivers for financial leaders.

    You also need to upload saves now and again.
     
  16. Xzight

    Xzight Chieftain

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    Update:

    Spoiler :

    Turn 36 (shadow).png


    BW completed on T:36. Two turns until worker is completed...would it be best to start the revolution immediately or wait for the worker to pop? My guess would be to wait since there wouldn't really be anything worth whipping right away anyway.

    If I stick with Lymond's suggestion I would go writing next which seems like a good idea since I am creative, any thoughts?

    As for an overall plan I guess I don't really have one other than that if possible I would like to go for one of the military victories domination/conquest. I'm not experienced enough in the later stages of the game to envision what my empire should look like in the future.
     

    Attached Files:

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  17. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    Absolutely wait for worker to pop before revolt.
    That way, those 60 hammers that would otherwise stay "trapped" in the build queue would be unproductive that revolt turn.
    I value a workerturn at roughly 5 hammers in the early game, so getting that worker out before revolt saves you 5 hammers.

    Writing next sounds perfecly ok. TW/Pottery is also possible I think.
    You have alot of food here, and I think this increases the value of early granaries, and it also looks like you have a chance to get alot of cities quickly here, and it's important to get pottery before you get severely squeezed by city upkeep.

    Overall plan at this stage of the game should probably be "Get as much good land as possible, as quick as possible, while also trying to not lose cash at 0% slider before pottery/writing." :D
     
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  18. Gumbolt

    Gumbolt Phoenix Rising

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    Yes I meant short term plan.

    As you have gone for a second worker. I assume plan is to whip settler at S4 with 2 chops?

    Library beakers could be useful here from specialists. Very low commerce start. Was that Lymonds thinking?
     
  19. sampsa

    sampsa Ghost

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    Looking good, and I think your game has improved quite a lot already. :) One thing that hasn't been mentioned I think is binary research, meaning either go 0% or 100% science slider. Anything in between is usually worse, due to rounding. So after you have planted your 2nd city, go 0% until you have enough gold to be able to reach next tech at 100% and so on.
     
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  20. Xzight

    Xzight Chieftain

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    Thank you sampsa I didn't know about that! One thing I am wondering is since I am going to grow to 4 before settler was it a mistake to already start chopping? Will I just pre chop the forest and leave it until I start the settler?
     

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