Empire Food

[CGG1066]

Pooh has it right. No need for a city-wide food bank. Surplus food is distributed each turn - through what ever mechanism - and food that goes to cities can either be stored there or increase the population.

I'll say a few words on the mechanism, though. I would just make it simple; no sharing food until refrigeration and then only within the RR network. It also makes it a more dramatic shift to urbanization, really changing character of the cities in a way that civ glosses over now. Functionally we're splitting hairs, because the spoilage factors should be really high pre-refrigeration and RR, and very small there after.

Being an huge econ nerd, I love the economies of scale and diminishing returns to factor production. However, I don't see the game-play enhancement here. I know I had a relatively complex econ post up recently, and I like the stuff - but some corners would need to be cut in implementation - and this might be one of them. I love the idea though - but it does make tile optimization more complex for players who do not wish to automate it, so it might not be a worthwhile trade off.

 

[killmeplease]

in the system proposed by me, food bank size could be determined by number of grataries built (and other buildings like grain elevator). also a certain % of food could be spoiled each turn. say, 2%.

 

[V. Soma]

Nice thread
I strongly believe that when modders will get all tools (SDK, etc),
mods to make this reality will be possible, I say in about a year from now or so... I have hope...

 

[Camikaze]

My only issue with this is how would you place limits on the food bank? Food cannot be stored indefinitely, so there needs to be an empire cap, but then what determines the cap?

Instead of a cap, there could just be a gradual decay. Such a function shouldn't be too much of an issue to figure out.

 

[Dudu42]

Maybe you are being too picky about the mechanics.

All the mechanics proposed in this thread are way better then the happiness system (considering realism and balance), for example.

I proposed the food bank system with 2 things in mind: balance and realism - in that order.

CGG1006 proposed food sharing only after refrigeration tech. Sounds good to me, but a bit oversimplified. We should have some limited sharing until refrigeration, worked with Ancient Rome centuries before refrigeration was discovered. After refrigeration, the food sharing should get much better, resembling the urbanization, as CGG1006 noted.

But Pooh sugestions sounds awesome, I like the spoild system and the MULE one.

 

[Pooh]

But Pooh sugestions sounds awesome, I like the spoild system and the MULE one.

Being an huge econ nerd, I love the economies of scale and diminishing returns to factor production. However, I don't see the game-play enhancement here.

I originally thought of this enhancement because someone was concerned that rural agricultural areas have lower population densities than urban areas. While this is true, I think in Civ you need to look at city population numbers more as an indication of that city's productive capacity than actual population figures. I mean, come on, each additional person requires twice the food of the last one? Clearly, there's abstraction going on here. So, staying within the existing mechanics, this seems the easiest solution.

 

[ezysquire]

If I recall correctly an earlier version of Civ allowed for food trading from one city to another. it was a very useful strategy for creating strong diverse cities

 

[CGG1066]

If I recall correctly an earlier version of Civ allowed for food trading from one city to another. it was a very useful strategy for creating strong diverse cities

True - that was CivII. It was a major pain though - you had to build a food caravan unit and move it to the new city, and if there was a food disruption you'll have to do it all over again. The idea on the table wouldn't be so hard to manage/micro manage.

 

[AlpsStranger]

I can't really get behind this.

While I am very tolerant of large sweeping changes (1upT, Social Policies, etc) I think a line has to be drawn somewhere. While global happiness, to me, falls within the Civ style I do not feel that global food does.

You're getting too far away from the basic ideas that hold the Civ identity together at that point.

 

[Dudu42]

What? Civ identity?

The closest thing I can call "Civ identity" is "simulating the development of entire civilizations in a fun away". Shared food is a good simulation and is fun (not spetacularly fun, I admit, but at least a bit).

And I just can't buy this point: "Empire happiness is okay, but not food, it mess with the... basics(?)"?

Be a conservadorist and enjoy Civ V are excludent things, IMO.

One Unit per tile, per hexagonal tile;
Empire happiness
Policy tree
Cultural expansion tile by tile, with the possibilty to buy them.

All those things change the core mechanics of Civ much more than shared food. To claim that shared food is a bad idea because it changes basic ideas seems to be a very weak point to me.

 

[Camikaze]

Eh, I agree that a 'civ identity' does exist, and that straying from it too far is not necessarily a good thing, but I don't really see how this type of idea does that. Trade within your empire is already done through resources. Sharing within your empire is already done with happiness. Making the food system like these aspects would not be a drastic departure from the Civ identity.

 

[MikeJep]

I posted about food in another thread. I thought I would share.

These are just the copy pastes from, http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=9923684#post9923684.

"""
1). Make wheat (and other food resources) a strategic resource. Therefor the number of wheat farms you posses gives you more of this wheat resource. I would to balance, make wheat not give +1 as it does currently. In fact I think it may be better to decrease -1 . In this way the wheat resource can act as a surplus which may be sent afar.

2). Make some sort of city UI button -/+ which use up, if you will, the wheat resource and give +1 to that city.

3). Make it so that the wheat resource may be planted. Therefore increasing the exporting capacity of your farm cities.

4). City states should simply give x number of food resources which you can divide up as you see fit. I found it inane that one city state gave a small civ 5 but could supply a world spanning empire 50!!!

5). Using the Arabian unique buildings +1 to resources modifier. It may be possible to implement some sort of fertilizer "improvement" at the cost of one of the energy resources (i think they should have implemented electricity as a resource...). This building could increase the wheat yields from 1 wheat to 2 wheat.


"""


And....
"""
I must have not been very clear.
I will try again. I WANT wheat and other food resources spammed!!!

The +1 from the wheat resource would be removed. As well as the +1 you get from farms.

E.g.
Grasslands = 2.
Grassland + wheat = 2.
Grassland + farm + wheat = 2 + 1 wheat resource.

I would kajjigger some Lua code that, by planting a farm you automatically plant wheat. The loss in (as compared to vanilla civ) is made up for however in the number of wheat resources your empire now possesses. Each wheat resource can be "cashed-in" for 1 using a handy-dandy Lua interface(also needs to be moded) on the city screen. (feel like food trade before refrigeration for fruit should be crappy? no problem make the cash-in rate 0.2!)

Since wheat is a resource, you can trade it to other empires. (I also think this would stop city-states thinking they are Jesus with 5 loaves and 2 fish feeding half the world).

As technology progresses, the wheat resource could be replaced from a wheat=1 to a wheat =2. This would increase the effective food production.

Also, once the technology for the Haber process (important for making fertilizer, responsible for 1/3 of world food) has been developed, a new improvement the (nitrogen fixation plant) could be built requiring power (either coal or oil) and increases the yields of wheat.

Now we would have more options for coal then just build a factory or build a factory (who has ever built an ironclad?)
"""

 

[AlpsStranger]

What? Civ identity?

The closest thing I can call "Civ identity" is "simulating the development of entire civilizations in a fun away". Shared food is a good simulation and is fun (not spetacularly fun, I admit, but at least a bit).

And I just can't buy this point: "Empire happiness is okay, but not food, it mess with the... basics(?)"?

Be a conservadorist and enjoy Civ V are excludent things, IMO.

One Unit per tile, per hexagonal tile;
Empire happiness
Policy tree
Cultural expansion tile by tile, with the possibilty to buy them.

All those things change the core mechanics of Civ much more than shared food. To claim that shared food is a bad idea because it changes basic ideas seems to be a very weak point to me.

Shared food divorces cities even further from the terrain. The lack of emphasis on reading the terrain is already one of the biggest legitimate gripes about Civilization 5.

Happiness has already been extensively mutated in the series.

 

[Dudu42]

It doesn't. How do you think you're supposed to look for food? In the end, the one who produces food is you. You can import food, but still needs something to trade. Also, there's a cost of trading food, so it's not just a cheap sharing. You're supposed to import food only if you cant produce your own.

You're still looking for places with lots of wield. Hell, you're looking for terrain exactly the same. It just changes the level of specialization.