Empire Strikes Back Opinion?

Discussion in 'Arts & Entertainment' started by Zardnaar, Nov 12, 2020.

  1. Zardnaar

    Zardnaar Deity

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  2. Kyriakos

    Kyriakos Creator

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    Cartoon? I probably had come across the comix at the end of elementary school, but didn't like it either.
    The french cartoons on greek tv were Ulysses 31 and the Il etait une fois series (space/the body).
     
  3. r16

    r16 not deity

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    ı don't know why am failing so much in this , didn't ı tell you people AT-ATs came in with the "wrong side" in 1071 ?

    (and yes , those bigger ones in Vlll are just like that , 1453 type stuff translated into SW genre .)
     
  4. Zardnaar

    Zardnaar Deity

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    1071.

    You guys hold grudges for a long ng time. Still going at it in the 20th century.
     
  5. Valka D'Ur

    Valka D'Ur Hosting Iron Pen in A&E Retired Moderator

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    Yes, I read your full post. I'm going to say this: I'm getting annoyed. Warpus, I've been involved in fandom longer than you've been alive, or as close as doesn't make any significant difference. I'm not saying that means I'm always right. It just means I've had fannish experiences you haven't, and much more time to process them and possibly change my mind about some things over the years. Of course there are other things about which I have not changed my mind, and don't anticipate ever changing my mind.

    Not all wisdom started with the internet. We knew and debated stuff decades before, too.

    My point is that your complaint above is as valid for other franchises as it is about Star Wars. I saw Star Wars in its original theatrical release. I rarely bother watching it on TV. I own the original trilogy on VHS, and never bothered getting any of the movies in any other format, precisely because I know they're not the originals I saw. I don't want my memories muddied with Lucas' nonsensical tinkering with what didn't need to be "fixed."

    I honestly don't care if people, 10 years from now, think the current movies aren't that bad. They have the right to think whatever it pleases them to think. I haven't seen anything after the one in which Han was killed, and have no interest in seeing them.

    That whole section of the movie that took place on Hoth had me mesmerized. Of course you have to see it in the theatre to get the full effect. Those scenes of flying above the snowfields, up and over the mountains, and down again, actually made me dizzy to watch it. The walkers... it was almost like they were going to come right through the screen and stomp on the audience. There's no way you could possibly get that same feeling just from watching it on TV.

    (of course I know you don't like snow, so that could have something to do with it; I grew up where snow is normal for at least half the year, so Hoth seems normal to me)
     
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  6. Leifmk

    Leifmk Deity

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    Hell, there wasn't a coherent chain of events from the start of ep. 9 to the end of ep. 9. Each of the previous two episodes at least had some kind off plot structure to them, even though they didn't mesh well with each other. Episode 9 was basically just a bunch of set pieces and cutscenes and an aaaaawful lot of tell-don't-show.

    Pity, too, the production values were nice and the actors mostly did a fine job with what they were given. And a lot of the individual set pieces were cool to look at, but.
     
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  7. r16

    r16 not deity

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    don't make me.jpg

    now that the story of AT-ATs got a date with Off topic relevance ... ı have no doubts that the TV series of day was the "awesome century" or whatever , about the Kanuni when cannon balls existed . And speech writers of PM were either Congregation or followed basic standarts and got him reference 1071 a war of cannons . American desire to get us dead does not stop itself or something , so the joys of New Turkey had to be like balanced ...

    as for SW fans hating the current to glorify the past does not apply , ı have been watching Star Wars movies since 1983 , it never was the case for me . Or something .
     
  8. warpus

    warpus In pork I trust

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    That's the problem when you don't plan out a trilogy and just magically expect everything to come together. George Lucas didn't rely on magic for Empire, he actually put in the effort to make it good.

    Why are you getting annoyed that my point applies to other franchises? If anything that makes my point stronger instead of the opposite.

    And no, this doesn't apply to all sci-fi franchises and stories. Everyone still dislikes the hobbit movies. The new battlestar galactica series got a good initial reception. It seems to apply to Star Trek - I find Trek and Wars fans very similar in this regard, so I'm not surprised. But I have no idea what other franchises have to do with any of this, though.
     
  9. Valka D'Ur

    Valka D'Ur Hosting Iron Pen in A&E Retired Moderator

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    That isn't why I'm annoyed. Maybe if I can resurrect my browser-eaten post from the Star Trek thread, you'll find it easier to understand.

    I've been around a few more SF/F blocks than you have. Maybe not the exact same ones since you're a fan of some things I've barely heard of, but I've got more years' of fannish experiences (note that "fannish" doesn't always mean positive; sometimes fandom can have very negative things happen).

    I'm annoyed because you are at times belaboring things I knew and understood 15-20 years ago or more, or you keep ignoring my point entirely.

    I never said 'all'. It's valid for Star Trek, definitely. I myself have gone from hating Enterprise to at least tolerating it as something to watch on Fridays when I'm not into whatever documentaries are on BBC Earth. But I will never accept it as belonging to the same continuity as TOS. It's like they intended it to be a prequel to TNG and ignore TOS.

    It's also valid for Dune, to some extent. House Atreides, while stupid, retconned BS, is not as godawful as Hunters/Sandworms or the Butlerian Jihad books. I actually enjoyed Dreamer of Dune (BH's biography of Frank Herbert), though of course I can't be sure how much of it is really true. Some parts ring true, but who knows about all of it. It's well-written, though, enough to tell me that the poor writing style in the novels is more KJA's fault.

    And while a lot of Dune fans decry the Lynch movie, there are other Dune fans who consider it better than the miniseries. I myself think there are good and bad aspects of both, and it's a shame that all the good aspects couldn't have ended up in the same production.

    I'm delving into Harry Potter fandom now (there are a LOT of YT videos analyzing what went right and wrong with the various movies, and comparing that to what went right and wrong with the novels), and never guessed at the levels of controversy about some aspects of the franchise.

    I can't offer an opinion about The Hobbit or any other LOTR movies. I never saw them. Never read the books, and have only a superficial idea of the plot or who the actors were in them. So in this case, your opinion carries more weight than mine.

    NuBSG... No. I loved the TV series in the '70s/'80s (BSG and Galactica 1980). I still own and occasionally re-read the tie-in novels, some of which were based on episodes, and some of which are original stories. It's a shame that Richard Hatch died (as a 'fun fact' associated with a negative aspect of ST fandom, he was associated with the Axanar fan film project that got so legally convoluted that it basically killed longer ST fan films due to copyright violation/IP theft; not that he was one of the perpetrators, but was intended to play one of the Klingon characters).

    I did not like the reboot. At all. That's one thing I don't anticipate ever liking.
     
  10. warpus

    warpus In pork I trust

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    What am I ignoring? I read all your points and responded to the relevant ones, I believe. If I missed anything it's not because I'm ignoring it, it's because I'm often busy and it's possible for me to miss something in a long post.

    Who cares if these same topics were discussed on another forum 20 years ago? We are on CivFanatics, now. These things we are discussing are opinions, so it's not like it would have been possible for these people from 20 years ago to "figure out" the answer and that's it, we can't talk about it anymore..
     
  11. r16

    r16 not deity

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    uhm , maybe ı can be a neutral in this by being an hater of nutrek and like what's there not to like in GlNO .


    - IMG_20201114_005849_809.jpg -
    that we like what we like and take a negative attitude when the masses start following fashions and it can be abrasive being told the new edition is much muuuuuuuch better . ı obviously like Prequels only because ı was a loner and like lacked peer pressure not to like because nobody was liking them .

    (You will love it! Do you understand me?) Translating the picture , dude .
     
  12. Valka D'Ur

    Valka D'Ur Hosting Iron Pen in A&E Retired Moderator

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    It would help to re-read the post to make sure you've addressed the other person's points adequately, or at least bothered to read them. This isn't a real-time conversation. You have the time. Sometimes it takes me 2-3 days to compose a reply.

    So yeah, it's like you're just talking past some of my points without bothering to acknowledge them, or choosing to misunderstand them.

    Did I not say previously that all the wisdom is NOT found on the internet? :huh: I wasn't online 20 years ago. For me it's only been 16 years, my first internet forum was a tabletop RPG site, and I only ended up on CFC when someone recommended this place as a good source for information about Civ. OT came much later.

    Believe it or not, fanac has been going on for decades before the internet happened. We just used conventions, phone calls, and snail mail (I started attending conventions in 1982, and was considered a latecomer as SF conventions started in the 1930s). People published print magazines, whether pro or fanzines. Trek (the publication, not the franchise) was one of those hybrid entities that had its literary foot in both worlds.

    I still have some copies of letterzines from the '80s in which people analyzed and debated and argued about various things they liked and didn't like about TNG, the TOS movies, and so on. It would read like any forum thread, except that each issue took weeks to put together, and came out once a month. Imagine a thread that you could only access monthly, instead of many times daily, to get new posts. But that's how it was, pre-internet.

    And I never said that we can't talk about things people already talked about before. I did say that you keep belaboring points that I already knew decades before, long before there was an internet, or at least long before we got really active in discussing things here. I get the impression that you think I need things 'splained to me, when the fact is that I do not (if I do need something explained, I will ask for an explanation). THAT is why I'm annoyed.

    And yes, I know I'm making Star Trek references in a Star Wars thread. The point is that SW fans didn't have the internet at first either, and would have gone about their branch of fanac in the same way the Trekkers did. Those "who would win a space battle" arguments between ST and SW fans likely started 10 minutes after a group of fans exited the theatre in May 1977. 43 years later it's still going on, just online instead of in living rooms and in the lettercols and 'zines where you don't get a reply until a month later.
     
  13. warpus

    warpus In pork I trust

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    Sorry Valka but the pandemic has been a crazy time and I don't always have time to read every single post. I do try to always make sure I read every single post I'm responding to, but I can often be in a rush and not actually address every single point. This isn't personal, but these days it's easy for me to miss this and that.

    If we disagree on this point then that's fine by me and franky I don't even remember the exact point this would be (see what I mean?)

    I am also very incredibly super hesitant to listen to all those Trek and SW fans with extreme opinions. I mean, I will listen to them, but these people are so entrenched in these franchises that their opinions are very.. insular? Also often very dismissive of differing opinions or even questions. Not everyone is like that of course, but the overall cut of their jib rubs me the wrong way, if you know what I mean. And no, I am not including you in this group, even though I know you've been a Trek fan for a long fan and hang out on places like TrekBBS (or used to?)

    None of this is personal to me in any way either, so i won't get upset over it. As far as I'm concerned we are talking about a made up story about space wizards and/or aliens. A lighthearted discussion about something that dosen't even exist.
     
  14. Takhisis

    Takhisis Rum and coke.

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    up yours.
    You didn't watch the Resistance one, eh? Apparently it got critical praise, but I actually watched it and felt ‘meh’ at best.
     
  15. warpus

    warpus In pork I trust

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    No and I quite disliked Rebels. The lead character is so annoying I wanted to jump off a cliff. I quit after 2 episodes. I guess I should have said live action
     
  16. NovaKart

    NovaKart شێری گەورە

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    I only like the original 3 Star Wars movies but then I haven’t seen anything after the prequels and I didn’t see the last one of those.

    I just don’t like CGI that much which is one thing I hated about George Lucas’ revision of the originals. And he made them too cutesy as well. It really ruins the effect to see Jabba the Hutt moving around in the added scene in the first movie and the stupid cute music scene in Jabba’s palace.

    And outer space seemed more vast and impressive when it was empty and not full of shining junk all over the place.
     
  17. Valka D'Ur

    Valka D'Ur Hosting Iron Pen in A&E Retired Moderator

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    Exactly. Jabba was never in the original version other than a casual mention in a line or two of dialogue. There was no reason to clutter up the movie with extraneous crap.

    That applies to all the extra ships, too. There are times when less is really more, and that's one reason why I hate the nuTrek movies. There's just too much. It's sensory overload, and when that happens I just tune out.

    That's one of the reasons it took awhile to start liking the Harry Potter movies as well. Some of the action scenes just have waaaay too much going on at the same time.
     
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  18. warpus

    warpus In pork I trust

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    I could never get into Harry Potter. I tried watching the first movie twice. The first time I feel asleep about 20 minutes in (this *never* happens to me) and the second time I got bored and just left. Cries of: "But a really cool part where they play this game where they fly around like witches is coming up!" did not really convince me.

    I don't get the big deal with this franchise. Maybe the books are better? But they're always in teen reading sections in the book store. Not that there's anything wrong with that.. the last book targeted at teens that I read.. was a book I read when I was a teen.

    So I mean, maybe one day I'll try to read the first book anyway, but I still don't really get what the big deal with all this is. And I'm probably coming across like a hipsterish elitist, but hey - I gave this thing a chance and it just seemed super boring. So maybe it's just not for me.

    When you say "nuTrek", is that anything produced after Voyager?
     
  19. Takhisis

    Takhisis Rum and coke.

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    up yours.
    Hell yeah, the Harry Potter books are good. It's not Umberto Eco or Thomas Mann but they're still definitely worth reading. The films? Please. They're some of the stuff that I actually move away from when channel-surfing.
     
  20. warpus

    warpus In pork I trust

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    So I have heard the books are good. but like I said they seem to be targeted at children. Which is fine, but my reading list is full of things targeted at an adult audience. I also usually read sci-fi and not fantasy. I also have The Golden Compass lying on my bookshelf, waiting to be read.. My friend lent it to me and I just haven't had time. There's always some sci-fi that wants to be read first.

    I realize that this isn't the thread for this, but maybe somebody could tell me what' so good about these books? It might convince me to pick up the first one. I was considering buying these for one of my nieces, but I don't think she's into wizards. More like princesses.
     

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