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Employment Obligation?

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Commodore, Jun 1, 2014.

  1. Willem

    Willem Deity

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    They were something like trade unions, only much more powerful. A carpenter would be part of the carpenter's guild, and nothing would get built if they weren't get involved. They weren't really owned by anyone, they functioned like a collective and handled all the transactions that came their way. If someone wanted a table built for example, they wouldn't shop around, they would simply go down to the local carpenter's guild hall and arrange for it's construction. They held a monopoly for their respective trades and no one could do business outside of them. And while the guild members weren't employees as such, they weren't independent businessmen either.

    PS: Here's a Wiki link where they're described in more detail:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guild
     
  2. Narz

    Narz keeping it real

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    Thanks. Still being part of a guild sounds like a better deal than being an employee. At least guild members might know one another & have each other's mutual interest at heart whereas CEOs may not even know their employees, who are likely largely interchangable.
     
  3. Willem

    Willem Deity

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    Not necessarily. If you happened to make your way up to Master Craftsmen, then yes. But the lowly apprentices were often treated quite brutally and callously, and generally had to endure a very meagre existence. It was something of a weeding process they had to go through, and only the ones who managed to put up with it went on to rise up the ranks.
     
  4. Tahuti

    Tahuti Writing Deity

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    That's why infrastructure should be positively neglected. We should consider asking tolls to enter highways for instance, as that will decrease the size of individual export markets for countries like China. I do not demand complete isolation of local communities, just a certain degree of filtering to make local economies interesting.
     
  5. Flying Pig

    Flying Pig Utrinque Paratus Retired Moderator

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    The existence of guilds also stifles competition, which means fewer jobs are available in the economy as a whole.
     
  6. Tahuti

    Tahuti Writing Deity

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    A system of competing guilds could be an answer. Originally, guilds used to be brought about by special privileges.
     
  7. Mise

    Mise isle of lucy

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    Yeah, what downtown said.
     
  8. Traitorfish

    Traitorfish The Tighnahulish Kid

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    Of course, this doesn't apply to our modern day professional guilds, because: reasons.
     
  9. luiz

    luiz Trendy Revolutionary

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    Everybody benefited from the previous increases in productivity, I don't see why now would be any different.
     
  10. aelf

    aelf Ashen One

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    One article of faith versus another - what's the difference?

    You know, Luiz, I feel the same way. I respect your economic input as much as I respect your views on fascism. It probably involves some mental acrobatics involving the use of unrelated objects in the place of proper thought.
     
  11. warpus

    warpus In pork I trust

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    Your boss should be able to fire you over anything except your race, religion, sexual orientation, ethnic background, class, caste, or any other protected class.

    As long as there's a good reason for the firing and it doesn't come into conflict with the above, I'd be fine with it.

    So to summarize: "I am firing you because your work ethic sucks" is fine, but "I am firing you because you are black" is not. That seems clear enough to me.
     
  12. Traitorfish

    Traitorfish The Tighnahulish Kid

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    How is "your work ethic sucks" distinguished, in practical terms, from "you don't work hard enough, obediently enough and for little enough money"?

    Because when you put it like that, it actually begins to sound kind of unreasonable.
     
  13. luiz

    luiz Trendy Revolutionary

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    What you call "free market fundamentalism" is just mainstream economics. What's the difference of that and Marxism? Well, the former is based on the collective empirical research of the last 250 years; it's adhered to by the world's best minds and taught and researched at the world's best universities - and it is the set of ideas that guide global economic policy. The latter was based on the shabby research and unscientific prophecies of a 19th century German, it has been widely discredited, all of it's prophecies failed to materialize and now only idiots still follow it as an economic doctrine, being entirely absent from the the mainstream. So a pretty huge difference.

    Luckily though you are an irrelevant person. I am handsomely compensated for my economic input.
     
  14. warpus

    warpus In pork I trust

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    I'd balance an employee's right to fire with the worker's right to a decent enough wage and decent enough hours.

    If "your work ethic" sucks involves things that the worker should not be responsible for, then that wouldn't be a valid reason to fire him/her. I am talking about a situation where the worker in question just doesn't produce nearly enough as his/her coworkers. Just one example of a valid reason to fire.
     
  15. amadeus

    amadeus Civ2 / Law and Order!

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    Then for what reason would a factory stay open? They aren't going to mass produce goods if there is no possibility for the company to recover its costs.
     
  16. Cutlass

    Cutlass The Man Who Wasn't There.

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    The thing is, "A fair day's wage for a fair day's work" is a phrase used by both workers and management. But they mean very different things by it. Management means a lot more work for a lot less pay. So it's pretty difficult to get a meeting of the minds on what is 'fair'. When management has too much power, like they do in the US now, then labor's view of what is 'fair' isn't even considered.
     
  17. BvBPL

    BvBPL Pour Decision Maker

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    Most US states have general employment at will provisions meaning that either party can terminate employment at any time. Obviously there are exceptions to that termination for discrimination based on specific classes and the like.

    The sole exception is Montana which has a probationary (90 day?) peroid where employment is at will after which employer must show good cause to fire someone.
     
  18. aelf

    aelf Ashen One

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    Proper economics doesn't ignore the short term and long term knock on effects of large scale structural unemployment. History can tell you incidences of new technologies rendering entire professions obsolete, and one of the things that happened was social unrest, not to mention the impoverishment of many people. People whom, you know, I can only presume are irrelevant to you because they are not "handsomely compensated" for their input.

    With one stroke, I think you managed to harm your own image more than I can.

    Plenty of unintelligent and ignorant people earn lots of money. I don't see how that is relevant here. And you think earning a little money makes you relevant? Hah!
     
  19. Traitorfish

    Traitorfish The Tighnahulish Kid

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    Is the ethically-challenged worker failing to produce as much as their coworkers because they lack servile virtues, or because the employer is setting an intense pace or volume of work which they are either unable or unwilling? Do we automatically assume the rightness of the employer's demands, and if so, how do we justify this assumption?
     
  20. civvver

    civvver Deity

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    I agree, look at quality of life and how much life expectancy, infant mortality, the amount of leisure time people have, how much all that has changed from technology. If we were all farmers still having to grow our own food there would be very little time for one to become a research scientist and develop new medicines etc.

    Look at cost of goods and how much those have gone down, pretty easy to afford a cheap car, an led tv, a cell phone, air conditioning. It's a natural cycle that some jobs should become obsolete.

    But employers receive a ton of benefits like on taxes and other incentives so many do sort of have an obligation to contribute to economic prosperity either through creating jobs or paying taxes on profits that go to other needed services. But I think this conversation is kind of irrelevant, supply and demand dictates that a business exists to meet a demand and whether they employ people or not they will try to meet it in the most efficient way possible and that leads to economic success. Maybe the demand they are meeting doesn't even involve employees who knows.
     

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