Encouraging Spanish - Aztec/Incan wars

[McA123]

I think that this is a pretty big problem, these 2 civs never die, and end up being a major thorn in the side of America and Spanish, French and English Colonialism. I think a brainstorm is in order to try to come up with some sort of way for them to die!

The only real thing I can think of that hasn't already been tried is for, say, conquistadors to spawn in South America at a certain point if Spain is present in the area. It's not a very good idea, but it's all I can come up with.

Also, setting them as MC's was already tried, to no avail, and the problem isn't that Spain, France, England or America won't declare war, it's that they won't invade.

 

[a1Basco]

If it is the Ai player, spawning Conquistadors does sound like an ok idea... but you have to remember that doing so would make it nearly impossible for a human player to defend if they were the Aztecs.

Now that I think about it more, it might not make sense for Spain to spawn Conquistadors if Spain was in a situation were it is defending against France or something.

The only solution I think.. is to make the AI less stupid. Which, to my very limited knowledge, is impossible.

 

[NitroJay]

Yes, spawning the conquistadors I think is a bad idea. That would be HUGELY unfair advantage to Spain... If there was only a way to make Spain INVADE... I can't imagine it's all THAT difficult. I know next to nothing about mod making, but if Rhye can make settlers want to go to America, why not conquistadors as well?

 

[MrThing]

Plus, the Spanish conquest of the Aztecs was really a fluke.

The Aztecs invaded the Spanish into a temple in which the warrior eliet did not bear weapions and the Spanish took advantage of the situation by slaughtering them.

There is also the whole disease problem. Most of the population quickly died from diseases brought over from Europe.

Not only that, but the Incan empire in particular was already unstable after rapid expansion. Many regions had recenly been added the the empire when the Spanish arrived and so were easily bought off to fight against the Incas.

 

[Tboy]

This is a real problem... I'm playing a game right now as the aztecs where virtually no-one has tried to colonize north america (mainly because I attacked anyone who tried ) and the Spanish are my best friends, and I have never been to war with them! A little more 'wanting' for Aztec and Incan lands would be good. After all, who wouldn't want all that bountiful land and gold?

 

[SadoMacho]

The AI Spain has often no Iron because the iron in spain is allmost every time under Frence cultural controle (by Bordeaux). In this way they cannot build conquestadors. Conquestadors are the key to conquest of the Aztecs and Inca. They can be brought to America befor astronomy.

I allso think the UP of spain is wrong. The Spannish Armada was destroyed because Engish ships were faster and more mobile than the Spannish, witch gave the English the chance of using a new tactic.

The Spannish strenght is the Reconquista and the Conquista. Nobleman gave there lands to the oldest son and there younger ones only got a sum of money. They became an army bent on conquering new lands that they could own. This were the conquestadors that recaputered Spain from the muslims and conquered the Americas. The more land was found in america teh more conqestador came.

 

[Blasphemous]

I have an idea then. Maybe the Spanish UP can be that as long as Conquistadores are buildable tech-wise (not resource-wise), whenever a city above size 7 gains a pop point, and whenever a city is founded, you have a 50% chance of getting a 2-XP Conquistador in that city immediately. This vaguely reflects the Conquista and Reconquista stemming from the people's selfishness as opposed to governmental control. It also means that when the government can't get its hands on iron, the people will still saddle up to fight.

 

[Tboy]

Blasphemous, you're idea seems good, if a little complicated. Maybe a 25% chance every time you found a city or go up a pop point would be better.

 

[McA123]

But couldn't that be easily abused with a small-sized city in an area with lots of food and a granary?

 

[Blasphemous]

Well, it can be limited in a few ways. You can get maybe no more than one Conquistador per turn, and maybe one city can never spawn one if it did less than three turns ago. That way even a huge Spanish empire would only get one per turn, and smaller ones would get even less.
Maybe a better and simpler implementation would be that you can draft Conquistadors regardless of your Civics as long as Conquistadors are available tech-wise.

 

[Vishaing]

Perhaps this attribute in the CIV4LeaderHeadInfos.xml file should be upped;

<UnitAIWeightModifiers>
<UnitAIWeightModifier>
<UnitAIType>UNITAI_ATTACK_SEA</UnitAIType>
<iWeightModifier>100</iWeightModifier>
</UnitAIWeightModifier>
</UnitAIWeightModifiers>

I'm not sure what it would do, but it looks like it might help. Unfortunately I cannot test it right now as I am working on something else.

 

[kairob]

The way I see it when the europeans arrived we wiped out most of them without fighting them, why not just give them a plague (like from civ 3) when we arrive that loses them lots of population and units? because thats basically what happened in real life IRC...

 

[Tboy]

Plagues... that's interesting. I've just posted something about them in a different thread (use this link), and they'd make a good addition to the mod, if it was possible (I've no idea how to script or anything).

 

[Prestidigitator]

Bit too late am I not ?
But yeah, I agree, I don't really fancy the fact that the Incans and the Aztecs are immortal, but take this, maybe we can make them fall to the Spanish, but then regain control after a while?

This would symbolize Mexico and Peru, just like Egypt symbolizes the modern country etc...


EDIT: and I have to problem with the ideas sparked by you guys .

 

[NitroJay]

Blasphemous's idea is excellent with the spawning of the conquistadors in new Spanish cities... That way, when the Spanish settlers get to America, they'll have an attack force already there. I'm just wondering if the AI ever uses the conquistador's ability to ride onboard a caravel, I don't think I've ever seen the AI use that... But the spawn idea is excellent.

I also think the plague's should be put in from the civ3 version of this mod. I loved the plagues... And Kairob's idea of plagues in the New World when then Eurpoeans arrive sounds awesome.

The only other idea I came up with, after being reminded of the old civ3 mod, was the use of wonders. I remember there were wonders like the Knights Templar that spawned crusaders every few turns... There were also wonders that could only be built in the Americas... I was wondering if the two could be combined in the civ4 version to encourage more European conquest in the Americas... After typing this out though, I think changing Spain's UP to help spawn the conquistadors is a much simpler solution...

I do miss the knight's templar though...

 

[McA123]

I do miss the knight's templar though...

That was always my favourite wonder.

 

[Crayton]

I've read that upwards around 90% of the native American population died between 1500-1700! This is reason #1 why the civilizations in the New World collapsed. The Spanish never fought an extended war with the Azteca or Inca as she did with the Almoravids. How many Conquistadors did Pizarro bring to Peru?

 

[Elhoim]

How many Conquistadors did Pizarro bring to Peru?

180 soldiers and 37 horses, with muskets and cannons. Then about 100 musketeers joined later.

 

[Tboy]

Yeah.... disease killed a lot of them. One heck of a lot.

 

[NeoT]

Yeah.... disease killed a lot of them. One heck of a lot.

Two thirds of the population, whitout the diseases, The Aztecs and the Incas would have lived a loooooot more time (like in RFC, whitout deseases they will not die at all)