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End of Escorts and Transports?

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by MethanalCHO, Mar 11, 2010.

  1. MethanalCHO

    MethanalCHO Chieftain

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    As you probably know, CiV will be implementing a "one unit per tile" rule. This obviously destroys the Almighty Stack of Doom, just as CIV's combat system destroyed the Almighty Tank-Destroying Spearman. However, after some thought, I determined that the one-unit-per-tile rule will destroy two concepts: escorting and transporting units.

    Anybody who ever built a navy in any of the Civ games would know what I mean by transporting: you build a naval unit such as the Galley or the Transport. You put some units onto the city to transport to another continent across the ocean.

    The 1-unit-per-tile rule finds multiple destructions of vital points in the concept of transports:

    A. Building units for setting sail would mean the defending unit would have to be moved out of the way for another unit to be put in. If this is a particularly weak unit (like an explorer or settler), the city could easily be moved into and captured.

    B. Then there is the more obvious problem of actually loading a unit onto the transport. At any one moment, there would need to be at least two units on the space of the coastal city at the time: the naval transport unit and the land unit to be loaded onto the transport. Even if the transport were just outside the city, in the ocean, the unit would have to move onto the transport in order for it to be loaded on, which would be impossible with a one-unit-per-tile rule.

    Then is the problem of escorting defenseless units, such as settlers or transports, to their destinations. We will use a very basic example of a settler and a chariot.

    In Civ4:

    There is a barbarian camp between City A and a good spot to build a new city. City A first builds Chariot B before Settler C. Chariot B and Settler C have the same movement abilities. The two move together, occupying the same hex. Along the way, Barbarian D attacks the space Chariot B and Settler C are in. Chariot B successfully defends Settler C against Barbarian D. Chariot B and Settler C continue along their way to the city site, where Settler C builds City E and Chariot B defends it.

    Possibly in Civ5:

    There is a barbarian camp between City A and a good spot to build a new city. City A first builds Chariot B before moving it out of the way and then building Settler C. The two both have the same movement abilities. Due to the 1-unit-per-tile rule, the two must accompany each other in adjacent hexes. Along the way, Barbarian D attacks Settler C and destroys it, negating the purpose of Chariot B or Settler C's production. Chariot B can attack Barbarian D, but the main point of going off was in vain.

    Right now, I know of no way this situation can be worked around while still respecting the one-unit-a-tile rule. Make any suggestions here!
     
  2. Thormodr

    Thormodr Servant of Civ Supporter

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    It has been stated many times that it is one military unit per hex. Settlers and workers are not military units.

    I am unsure how they'll deal with naval affairs though.
     
  3. Perfxion

    Perfxion Warlord

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    They will either have transports cheaper, or allow them to keep the same number of units as before.
     
  4. Aussie_Lurker

    Aussie_Lurker Deity

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    The rumor I hear is that it will be 1 military unit of each *domain* (land, sea, air). If true, then this means that you could have a fleet of destroyers, a squadron of fighters & an infantry in the same city without violating the 1 unit-per-hex rule. You could then build a settler or worker, on top of that, without impacting on this rule.

    Aussie.
     
  5. MethanalCHO

    MethanalCHO Chieftain

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    I suppose both of those together would help solve Transporting Problem B and the Escorting Problem. However, scouts/explorers count as military units (I think, correct if wrong), and what if you need to send a military unit to defend a weak city on another continent? The defender would have to move out for those purposes.
     
  6. snapple232

    snapple232 Warlord

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    Cities will defend themselves automatically. Garrisoning one military unit in it makes it stronger, but is not necessary for its defense.
     
  7. grommit5

    grommit5 Warlord

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    It could be completely feasible to put mutliple units on a transport. They would just have to be loaded from and/or unloaded to seperate hexes.
     
  8. Takeda

    Takeda Warlord

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    I've heard unconfirmed reports that naval transports will be removed from the game entirely.

    They will be circumvented by allowing land units to "transport themselves" over water if you send them through a city with a harbor and have the proper techs researched. Again, this is unconfirmed but I think it would present a pretty elegant solution.

    The only problem I can think of is how will you return those units home if the invasion goes poorly? Perhaps they simply remain "transport enabled" for a period of time after you send them through a harbor.
     
  9. cspyr0

    cspyr0 Chieftain

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    In another thread someone made the suggestion that if you move a unit to a city with a harbor, the unit could then be turned into a transport temporarily. I personally like the idea since it will take a lot less work to organize oversea expeditions. I'm not sure what would happen if you landed your unit on a continent with no friendly harbors though - should it be stuck? It would be too powerful to let units become transports anytime they wanted.

    edit:
     
  10. grommit5

    grommit5 Warlord

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    I haven't read all the info available but that sounds like a workable alternative to me. It will be interesting to see how the final product all meshes together. It's the overall immersion not the individual parts that matter.
     
  11. GePap

    GePap Warlord

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    Well, if Panzer General is the grand inspiration for the combat system, then it would work how it worked in that game, which was that you took a ground unit to a city and then you hit a command so that the unit would become its own transport, which you then moved overseas to land somewhere. The thing there is that while such a system made some sense in a purely tactical game like Panzer General, where production was never an issue, it doesn't make as much sense in a strategic game like civ, where having to build the ships to transport armies should be something that has to be done seperately.
     
  12. KrikkitTwo

    KrikkitTwo Immortal

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    The way I would see that happening is instead of building Transports, you build the "Harbor" in the city.

    Perhaps a "Mobile Harbor" could be a ship... units can move onto it and become a "transport" just like they would in the city with a Harbor.
     
  13. Dryhad

    Dryhad Prince

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    Quite possibly, but why would you want to escort a scout? Surely that defeats the entire purpose of using a designated scout unit? Or am I completely misunderstanding you?

    What? I really don't understand what the issue is here at all. If you wanted to move a unit to an undefended city you'd have to move it there, yes...

    About the transport thing, do you all really honestly believe that "one unit per tile" is a hard and fast rule that they're going to apply blindly and without exception? Either they will have a completely new method for transporting units across water, or transports will just not follow it! Think about it, in Civ IV land units can't walk on water tiles, right? But that "rule" doesn't stop them stepping onto a transport on the coast. Neither will any "one unit per tile" rule prevent units from entering a tile that contains a transport, or even (possibly) from entering a transport that contains another unit.
     
  14. Danger

    Danger Chieftain

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    If units become "transportable" by moving them to a city with a harbour, how would combat work while, for example, your infantry is out at sea?
     
  15. Grimlin

    Grimlin Chieftain

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    In Rise Of Nations units transform to transports when moving them into the sea. This transports have other stats then the normal unit but if they take damage the unloaded unit is also damaged.
    So in combat those new transport stats come to play, i.e. making them easy prey for subs.
     
  16. GoodSarmatian

    GoodSarmatian Jokerfied Western Male

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    I suppose unguarded transports get destroyed without combat. As for guarding/escorting units at sea (if units become transport)s it's possible that transports count as civilian units and can be stacked with one naval unit , or naval units get a zone of control and you can't attack an enemy transport which is accompanied by a destroyer on an adjacent tile.
    Now the only other problem I see are carriers. Having each carrier only carry one squad seems strange.
     
  17. tom2050

    tom2050 Deity

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    My guess is that they won't make Transports combat units, so they can travel with a ship for escort. 1 unit per tile doesn't mean that they can't allow multiple units into a transport. They would have to drop at seperate hexes though.

    Same goes for Airlift, can it be modded to have more than 1 unit airlifted? Hopefully, because not all mod's focus on large aspect scenarios, some may be very small scale with each unit actual being very few actual units. 1 unit per tile may cause problems making certain historical scenarios (unless this system can be changed).

    Tom
     
  18. Newcomer24

    Newcomer24 Warlord

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    I don't see the problem.

    You will have a lot fewer units... so a transport carrying a single unit makes perfect sense. You will need 5-6 trasports to move a decent sized army, exactly as before.

    Regarding trasports escorting... you will escort them in the same way you will defend your archers and artillery, with a defensive line in front of them.
     
  19. marekb

    marekb Warlord

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    As mentioned before, I would suspect system similar to PG.

    But on the sees I would expect a little "one-unit-on-tile" different rule then on the land. Namely, that on one hex could be stack one surface unit (war ship/transport with a single unit) one air unit and one submarine. This would force to make real convoys to protect transports
     
  20. King Kalmah

    King Kalmah Magyar Madness

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    I think that naval units will be bare minimium in this game and the unit will be put in one city with a harbor and if its an enemy continent it will be like a D day situation where you'll be forced to capture a beachead and then move to capture a town/city with a harbor.Tough to say if they will allow us to keep buildings/improvements in cities we capture.
     

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