Endgame against Rome superpower [France, Emperor, Turn 249]

Discussion in 'Civ5 - Strategy & Tips' started by Ossicko, May 25, 2011.

  1. Ossicko

    Ossicko Chieftain

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    Turn 249. Rome and I are the remaining superpowers. He's conquered effectively the whole continent other side of the world and is about double my size. I seem to have a tiny tech edge at the moment and am decent in production, also have mercantilism + big ben.

    The question is which course to take, domination or space. (I don't think I have enough for diplo since there's pretty much no one to sell my goods for, and most CS are allied with Rome &/ -60 for my war against Germany.)

    For domination only Rome, Songhai (1 city a few hexes from coast) and Mongols (I can take him any time) remain. I have 3 turns for foreign legions, but no dynamite and rome has riflemen + artillery. He also has Himeji, full Honor, etc. and capitol is at a pretty nasty spot down-middle of his continent. Going this route I think would be fully committing to going the nuke tree which part I totally lack currently. Also my army and navy are smallish, I've just effectively taken out Germany to get Berlin.

    For science I'm not sure if I can keep ahead to win the race, what do you reckon?


    So I'd love to hear others arguments as to what course of action would be best for this endgame. Thanks! :)


    (It would be brilliant if Bibor and MadDjinn could analyze this in Civ5MA, hinthint ;))
     

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  2. Deau

    Deau Emperor

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    I would think science is the better way. Keep in mind that you don't need to be first to every tech to win science. Most AIs are just dumb and keep going for a different victory type even after they have all the required techs. In that case, I would suspect Rome plays for domination or diplomatic. If you can ensure he won't have the ~10 votes for diplo victory, you should have np getting a science victory without too much hassle.

    If you feel like going domination though, foreign legion+artillery vs rifle+artillery should make it rather easy. The UU UP counters the Heijmi castle effect so this would feel like playing infantry+artillery vs rifles+artillery. A decently promoted set of units (given your previous wars were succesful enough to retain~4 frontline units to upgrade) with a slow&cautious paced progression should get you there.

    If you do go for Dom though, I highly recommend going to Rome first because from what you are saying, he has outgrown you thus he should catch up/outtech you if you don't make immediate benefit of your late game sweet UU lead.
     
  3. eric_

    eric_ Emperor

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    Definitely agree about going for Rome first if you're going Dom. It will take the longest, especially with his artillery on line. The more of his strong cities that you can wipe out, the better, obviously.

    Finally, nice file name :lol:
     
  4. vexing

    vexing knows

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    what kind of state is your army in? do you have any march units?
    i see a few mouseketeers, a trebuchet, cannon, rifleman, pikeman, a couple frigates... not an overwhelming force, but it seems like you should be able to establish a beachhead in the southeast snow area and attack from there. if you can manage to upgrade all the units to foreign legion, you should be okay.

    personally i wouldn't go for space at this point; he has 2x your population and is going to outtech you soon.
     
  5. Bungle

    Bungle Chieftain

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    Maybe you can try to get Rome and Mongolia into a war with each other, then do a sneak attack on Rome. Ally with as many city states as possible to force him to spread out his troops. You can also try to bribe Rome into attacking some city states.. permanent war! You are smarter than him at warfare, so if you use that you might very well be able to conquer him - or at least get a sweet one-sided peace treaty in your favor :) But you have to act quickly.

    I think Science Victory sounds like a decent plan. But I would definitely try to reduce a bit of Rome's power through warfare. Any type of victory('cept for Culture maybe?) can be done as long as you deal with Augustus first :)
     
  6. bryanw1995

    bryanw1995 Emperor

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    You don't need to touch agustus to win, with your current setup you can focus on tech and go for a science win. However, the AI is so bad at war that you should be able to beat him that way as well. I'll try to play it out a couple of different ways tonight to see the best way to go.
     
  7. Ossicko

    Ossicko Chieftain

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    My army is 3 riflemen, 5 musketeers, 1 pike, 2 cannons, 1 trebuchet and 1 catapult. Also 2 GG's. Navy consists of 4 frigates and 2 caravels. Most promoted are only 3 promotions. I have 2 cities that can churn out 30 xp units. Keep in mind that with mercantilism + BB it's almost as cheap to buy whole new units instead of upgrading.

    The dilemma is that almost all of my units are literally on the other side of the world from Rome, it would take them 13 or so turns just to move to Roman continent and many of them are still only healing from German war (made peace this turn). There are 2 CS on Roman continent that are both allied to Rome but might serve as a spearhead.

    It would also take another 8 turns to research dynamite for napol.. I mean artillery.

    Mongols are very backwards and are sporting pikes & keshiks, and they're positioned between me and Rome, which is the reason I haven't taken their capital. I don't want to weaken them.


    Oh and did I mention Rome also has loads of money.
     

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  8. Resident Mario

    Resident Mario Warlord

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    You need to weaken Rome, but taking it out looks nearly impossible at your current level...I dunno, you look kind of screwed.
     
  9. Deau

    Deau Emperor

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    The number of units in your army is enough but them not already all being fully upgraded is a true harm. I guess/doubt you have enough gold lying around to mass upgrade 8 or so rifles and muskets to foreign legion...and you will also really need artillery to go against Rome...if he already has them I would probably aim for 6 artillery for the core of the battle so that's another crapload of unit upgrades.

    I mean it's doable with fewer units like 5-6 front 3-4 artillery but your progression pace will be so crippled that I still believe you would be able to plug in a science win faster than a domination with such a small front regardless if augustus were to outtech you since I would expect him to play for dom/diplo.
     
  10. vexing

    vexing knows

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    i'm clearly not looking at the game directly but i suspect if you start moving now, you can reach your shores just in time for promotions to foreign legions (move them fully two turns, then when you get the tech you move them so they have 1 move left then promote). is rome allied with monaco / sidon? that might hurt and you probably don't have enough gold to both steal those alliances and upgrade.

    are you close to having any great scientist? if you can get one in 15ish turns, you could establish your beachhead, take a city, make the jump to mechanized infantry and the conquest should be trivial at that point.

    you also have electricity so your ships can become destroyers, if any of them are close to logistics that might be worthwhile.

    edit: just noticed your central island city, that'll be a good spot for upgrades as well
     
  11. Rittmeyer

    Rittmeyer Prince

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    I think you can't upgrade inside CS allies anymore, since the patch.
     
  12. vexing

    vexing knows

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    you can't... he has 3 turns to get to foreign legion, he should still be within his borders. i was suggesting a west to east movement
     
  13. Rittmeyer

    Rittmeyer Prince

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    oh.... I think I've read too fast and mixed your first two sentences.
     
  14. fromar

    fromar Warlord

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    This is going to be a tough fight. You will need all your melee units as foreign legion and you should pick up artillery before you go.

    If it were me....

    I would put my army on that snow/tundra area southeast of of Mediolanum. Set up in a defensive posture with a lot of artillery behind the melee units before declaring war. Make sure you are out of range from a Mediolanum-based artillery.

    Once I declare war, I should play very defensively. Let Rome waste a lot of units into your line before moving forward. When it seems that the coast is clear, a mounted unit should move in and verify the terrain is clear before moving in. I would capture Mediolanum, then Rome. There's a river between Mediolanum and Rome that will help protect your west-moving units from Antium-based units, but it will hinder your attack. Rome only has two tiles to attack from that aren't over a river. Promote your units to amphibious or pound Rome down to nothing with your artillery before attacking. I would try very hard to preserve your units until you get to Rome. Then if things look rough, suicide them as hard as you can into the city.

    Once I beat back the initial attack from declaring war, I would move fast to take cities.

    Once I took Rome, I would sue for peace. If Rome refuses, and I still had units, I would liberate Helsinki and Sydney.
     
  15. qyll

    qyll Prince

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    Maybe try going for a two-turn attack on Rome starting with battleship bombardment or even better, nukes, then landing infantry to capture the capital next turn?
     
  16. vexing

    vexing knows

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    okay, i opened up the file and looked around. you're in a really good position for domination via mechanized foreign legion:

    set orleans to manual specialist control, change to producing garden, fill university /public school. it was going to produce scientist anyway but this should guarantee it. set research to telegraph after replaceable parts.
    i'd donate most obsolete units to a city state, like your swordsman, warrior, catapult. you're right about the cost of upgrading.

    upgrade your pikeman as rome has a lot of cavalry. move your two cannons and trebuchet toward monaco, upgrading the trebuchet at the end of a move. start heading your threeish highest level rifles toward your central island. your mouseketeers are generally not of a high enough level to bother with upgrades. they could probably just be gifted to a city state as well.

    in 13ish turns you'll be able to use your great scientist to open electronics, upgrade 5 or 6 foreign legion and set up in monaco. steal their allegiance from caesar before you invade their territory as they're in a good position to stage from. you should be able to capture either of the nearby cities within a couple turns with a few mech infantry + great general. you'll be at 70ish str vs the cities 50ish and deal about 7 dmg per attack. you should be finishing researching artillery about the time you capture your first city, can upgrade your cannons then, and it should really be smooth sailing.
     
  17. Ossicko

    Ossicko Chieftain

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    Decided not to take action against Rome and to capitalize on tech instead. An idea of ill-prepared invasion on another continent against an opponent double my size with Great Wall, Himeji, full Honor etc. and tech parity just didn't seem like a fun concept.
    Spoiler :

    Rome swiftly decimated Songhai too and researched nukes (later found that ironically only Germany and Mongols had Uranium), denounced everyone else but didn't take any more aggression. He had tanks around in 10-20 turns so not sure how that invasion would have ended up working out.

    I went Refrigeration - Plastics for Labs & hydro, then took Telegraph for Cristo to start working on rationalism tree. After that lined Radar and hurried Pentagon for cheap upgrades. Had about 10+10 army & navy of modern units in expectation of attack that never came. Launched to space in turn 334.
     
  18. vexing

    vexing knows

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    i tried out domination; got electronics turn 260 and upgraded 6 foreign legion,
    set up for antium in about 6 turns, declared war and took antium within a few turns,
    rome was pretty annoying with the masses of artillery, cavalry and infantry caesar was sporting. i could have taken rome a lot sooner but i started sending units toward gao which ended up unnecessary instead of reinforcing my initial roman forces.

    mongolia fell to two mech infantry, using their promotions for heals.

    btw, given that rome has riflemen, the great walls effect is obsolete (happens at metallurgy)
     

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  19. CossackProblem

    CossackProblem Warlord

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    I think a demonic barbarian horde is going to burst out of that mountain blindspot and bring a new age of terror upon the world.
     
  20. Ossicko

    Ossicko Chieftain

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    Swift work. We can then conclude that both options were very doable. Diplo would've also been quite possible, I had almost the votes in way before launching.
    Of course, I don't know how I missed the obvious. It's amazing what taking a break from playing civ can do to you!

    I was actually a bit scared to research satellites, and you wouldn't believe what they revealed in there! :eek:
    Spoiler :
     

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