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Ending America's Oldest Affirmitive Action Program

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by AlpsStranger, Jan 6, 2017.

  1. civvver

    civvver Deity

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    Yes but just pointing out our country wasn't setup to be majority rule and for specific reasons.

    Actually no one got to vote directly for president in those days so saying without letting the slaves vote is a little misleading. IIRC, locals voted for electors, I'm actually not even sure if they voted for the electors, they may have voted for state legislatures who picked the electors. I do know until 1913 the state legislatures chose the senators for that state.

    Yes pretty much. People don't seem to understand how recent it is that people cast a vote for the president directly. And the electoral college needs some tweaking or change or something, but it's not a total dumpster fire like many like to portray it as.
     
  2. Lexicus

    Lexicus Deity

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    Specific reasons that are more or less odious to most people living in the US today, and that include a belief in basic human inequality.

    You act like there is an objective way to answer this question, but of course there isn't. To someone like myself who believes the candidate who gets the most votes should win, it is a dumpster fire.
     
  3. Farm Boy

    Farm Boy syntax error

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    And the economy is apparently up these days to match all the pithy words of the year going around. Huh.
     
  4. civvver

    civvver Deity

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    Idk, you somewhat marginalize everyone who doesn't live in new york, california or texas if you go to popular vote system. I like being considered from a rust belt state as important. There are worse ways to do things, like what if congress elected the president lol that would be horrible.

    Although, a popular vote system might enable a third party to actually do something or have an impact in an election. So maybe I am for it.
     
  5. Traitorfish

    Traitorfish The Tighnahulish Kid

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    Those states only contain a quarter of the electorate. How is the rest of the country marginalised when they could consistently bury those three states, should they so choose?

    It's like saying that you could dominate Britain just by winning Scotland, London and Northern Ireland, and the Remain campaign can you that doesn't really work in practice.
     
  6. Arwon

    Arwon

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    Did I say "vote directly for president"? I did not. Unless you're contending one of:

    • There were no elections in slave era America
    • Slaves could vote
    • Slave population did not count towards apportionment of representation to each state
    I'm not sure what argument you think you are having with me.
     
  7. Zkribbler

    Zkribbler Deity

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    They voted for electors. What I don't know is if they were pledged to a particular candidate and, if so, how binding that pledge was.
     
  8. hobbsyoyo

    hobbsyoyo Deity

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    The intent (as I understand it) was that electors would always be free to make up their own mind. They were supposed to function as a check against objectively bad people being elected to the Presidency. If I understood a recent NPR story correctly (and I may not have as I wasn't fully engaged), the 'faithless elector' laws couldn't actually be enforced if challenged as they are unconstitutional.

    In reality, the US never developed a tradition of faithless electors because reasons. By now it's taken for granted that they will elect who they're told to elect with only a small number of faithless electors over the years. Also, political parties in many states directly select the electors they send so the chances of them actually becoming faithless electors is very slim because they are political partisans to begin with.
     
  9. Kyriakos

    Kyriakos Creator

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    Maybe FE would be an issue if Trump didn't win so many of the pledged electors. Is it realistic that enough would not vote for him to alter the election?
     
  10. hobbsyoyo

    hobbsyoyo Deity

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    No it's not realistic at all, unfortunately.

    I'm not saying things had to be this way nor will it necessarily always function this way. However, it would take an absolutely massive, broad-based, far-reaching reform of our electoral process to change it. That or a very long, drawn out process of state legislatures individually changing the way the EC electors are selected in their states to make it a less partisan process. The chances of the latter happening without the former are minuscule.
     
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  11. Farm Boy

    Farm Boy syntax error

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    State legislators seem to have the habit of suing to overturn anti-gerrymandering legislation that skoots through by referendum, if that puts the issue in about the right light.

    I may be overgeneralizing from the article I'm half-remembering, but I don't think I'm reaching very far.
     
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  12. onejayhawk

    onejayhawk Afflicted with reason

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    It's also how the system was designed to work. True slavery was an element, but only one. Virginia was the cultural center of the country and did not wish to kowtow to Boston, Philadelphia, and New York. It's a big reason why the Capital is located where it is.

    I love your solution. Few people can say, "Give me everything I want." so obliquely.

    No one said they were. This was about protecting people in less populated areas.

    J
     
  13. Traitorfish

    Traitorfish The Tighnahulish Kid

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    "Challenge accepted."

    I mean, if you can call tobacco and being in debt to the Scots "culture". I wouldn't put over-much faith in the self-image of Tuckahoe gentleman.

    What about people in less populated parts of large states? The current system devalues the votes of people in rural New York while exaggerating those of people in urban Idaho. If it was on a county-by-county basis, it might work- at least the most heavily-populated counties are as a rule heavily urban- but at this distance from actual, flesh-and-bone human beings, you lose all detail.
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2017
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  14. Bootstoots

    Bootstoots Deity Retired Moderator

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    But where would we be, without having committed a long series of genocides and wars of aggression from coast to coast? Where would the Industrial Revolution in the UK or US have been without the vast quantities of cheap cotton produced by treating humans worse than cattle? He embodies the ruthless logic of settler colonialism, which is the original sin that objectively Made America Great before the Again had to be attached. I hate him, but he was very effective at what he did, and Americans (mostly the white ones) still reap the benefits of Jacksonianism to this day.
     
  15. schlaufuchs

    schlaufuchs La Femme Moderne

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    I mean, to be fair to the electors, they did do their job in 1824. It's not their fault the electorate was so incompetent that they would demand a wholly unsuitable candidate not once, but twice (or, uh, thrice, I suppose).

    *ETA* nvm, it was that Congress did their job; Jackson won a plurality of electors in 1824.
     
  16. Martin Alvito

    Martin Alvito Real men play SMAC

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    That's more or less how I'd put it, at least when we're talking about the latter portion of the 19th Century. I'd stop short of characterizing it as an idea with real currency during that time frame, but if you want to characterize it as a fringe belief at the time then I'm not going to argue with you.

    It's somewhere south of Roosevelt and north of Wilson's second term where the populace started to take the notion seriously, and further out before you start to see the law recognize the principle in actual practice.
     

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