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England and map restarts/ragequits

Discussion in 'Community Patch Project' started by Enrico Swagolo, Feb 9, 2019.

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Do you generally restart/quit if England and her Spy are present early on? If so, when?

  1. I restart when she latches on to me with her spy early.

    8 vote(s)
    17.4%
  2. I quit when she's my immediate, close neighbour.

    2 vote(s)
    4.3%
  3. It's usually enough of a reason for me if she starts on my continent.

    1 vote(s)
    2.2%
  4. My restart depends on my policy/playstyle choices or different, complicated factors.

    4 vote(s)
    8.7%
  5. I've made her not appear in my games as a foe (modded out, RAS, etc.).

    2 vote(s)
    4.3%
  6. I don't usually/ever restart because of England's espionage.

    26 vote(s)
    56.5%
  7. It's different for me. (please specify in a comment)

    3 vote(s)
    6.5%
  1. Enrico Swagolo

    Enrico Swagolo Deity

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2013
    Messages:
    2,387
    I'm seeing a common theme in people either posting about removing England from their games, restarting/ragequitting if she spies on them too much or simply agreeing with posts that say about that, so I think this poll has to be made. I am unsure if it belongs in this subforum or the balance/leader one, but I think here it'll get more visibility. If it doesn't belong here, it can be moved but looking at other threads in this subforum that are also partially leader/balance related, I don't think it's in the wrong place.

    Here's an explanation how England works for those who don't know - Elizabeth can send an Agent Spy to someone's capital and he'll steal a tech the spied upon civilisation has discovered that England knows not after X amount of turns. It can be checked in the spy menu. The Spy is an Agent (lvl 2 out of 3 total levels), but he levels up almost immediately after being sent to a city belonging to another civilisation. Besides the tech stealing, he'll also have a random chance to:
    • Steal :c5science: Science or :c5gold: Gold. They're added to England's tech progress/treasury. The amounts depend on how much is generated by the city for the former and on the civ's treasury if the latter. :c5science: is usually 0.5-1 turn's worth so not that much with how rare it is, but I often got about 1 to 50+:c5gold: per steal. It ranges from almost nothing to several turns worth of Gold.
    • Destroy :c5production: Production towards anything that is being built, including units, wonders, buildings. England doesn't get the hammers. It frequently takes half of an unit/building. I've removed 30+ :c5production: on Napoleon's Warrior by spying on him on Epic last game. That's many turns worth of Production at this point. It's huge.
    • Destroy :c5greatperson: Great People points towards a random GP type. England doesn't get them, enemy loses them. From my experience it can be as much as 25-50% of a Great Person.

    The above is extremely crippling for humans and impossible to counter - if Merlin (the Spy's name) ends up in your capital, only RNG will lessen his impact, you cannot do anything to stop his subversive onslaught. The only counter available to you is starting a new game or modding England out. Sure, you can declare war on her when you see her Pathfinder to try and ensure she doesn't see your capital, but if that doesn't stop him from moving or she did see it anyway, you've only made Elizabeth more likely to send that dastardly Spy to you and ignore any request for his removal.

    I don't think the civ is overpowered - she usually does badly in AIs hands as she gets repeatedly stabbed by all civs who are around her and I can't remember a single game she really did well in. The UA doesn't seem to damage AIs as bad as it does humans and it doesn't seem as powerful as some other unique abilities while the UB is not only very late but also generally awful and unimpactful in my experience, but she's the primary reason for my restarts anyway. She's just frustrating and unsatisfying to fight against, even when I force myself to continue despite the neighbourly espionage and kill her, none of that brings me any fun.

    I myself restart when she latches on to me early, so the first option. I've made the poll rather detailed because I think it's important to know the particulars here.
     
  2. DoctorDuke

    DoctorDuke Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2016
    Messages:
    87
    Location:
    Hudson Valley
    My game plan immediately changes to: can I cripple or kill England and still have a good game? Once the answer becomes clear I soldier on or quit.
     
  3. crdvis16

    crdvis16 Emperor

    Joined:
    May 2, 2013
    Messages:
    1,211
    In pretty much every game I've had her on my continent I've been able to request that she stop spying on me and she agrees and goes after someone else. I've never had to stop a game due to her.
     
    ryanmusante and glider1 like this.
  4. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2016
    Messages:
    5,565
    Location:
    Beijing
    I voted that I don't reroll.

    From what I can tell, the decision to ask an AI to stop spying on you does nothing. They will usually agree, but just continue spying.
     
    Jakethedane likes this.
  5. Minh Le

    Minh Le King

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2018
    Messages:
    793
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    Male
    Playing on Deity you will almost always be behind until renaissance so England will not spy on you (unless youre playing warmonger, so you should kill her first).
     
  6. civplayer33

    civplayer33 King

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2017
    Messages:
    965
    Hmm I've had the impression that it does work, if they agree, but only for a limited time, after which they will start spying again so you have to ask them again and hope they'll agree again.

    The reason I think it works is that those civs who don't agree will usually keep getting Advanced Actions / Tech theft against me after I asked, while the agreeable civs won't until some time has passed (maybe 30 turns? Something like that...)
     
  7. FoxOfWar

    FoxOfWar Prince

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2016
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    Gender:
    Female
    Location:
    Unimproved Forests of Finland
    It's usually a problem only if I'm the first civ she finds - I'm behind in techs soon enough anyway, so often I can just ask her to stop spying and be in peace. And if I somehow share an island or something with just her, I can just rush to spearmen and remove London from the map.
     
  8. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    Aug 9, 2017
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    Alberta, Canada
    I thought advanced actions were going to be changed so that England's spies didn't force re-rolls?

    This was discussed 2 versions ago and nothing came of it, unless it simply wasn't mentioned in the patch notes?

    I would definitely be in favor of boosting Steam Mills and nerfing early spy actions. The Advanced spy actions (stealing gold, wrecking production, etc.) that England can do to 1 target is anti-fun if you're playing against England. The Steam Mill being super late and being only marginally stronger than the Factory is anti-fun as England
     
  9. myles718

    myles718 Chieftain

    Joined:
    May 14, 2006
    Messages:
    62
    I only play as England
     
  10. BiteInTheMark

    BiteInTheMark Emperor

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    Iam getting spied even Iam the most behind civ on the same continent. Beeing bad in tech is no protections against her.
     
  11. Minh Le

    Minh Le King

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    Maybe she hates you :)
     
  12. ryanmusante

    ryanmusante Regular Supporter

    Joined:
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    I do the same and I check every so often to do another request for her to stop. I don't know what the turn length is.
     
  13. andersw

    andersw Emperor

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    sweden
    After the nerf it's not as bad as it used to be, in most case I'm ok with her but ....
    Early hammer sabotage can be bad, culture sabotage just before popping first policy or gold theft when saving up to the first warrior purchase are things that could get me to restart, depends a bit what difficulty I've chosen also.
    If she spies on other civs that often leaves her in a bad diplo spot.
    If direct neighbour I prefer to eradicate her because I cant counter spies until later.
     
  14. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    When was cultural sabotage by spies added to the game?
     
    Gokudo01 likes this.
  15. andersw

    andersw Emperor

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    sweden
    Oh I remember wrong? yes probably senile me mixing it up with early barbs.
     
  16. Rafs

    Rafs Warlord

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2016
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    149
    If she is within reach I'll inmediately get an army going, go autorithy and try to kill her or be killed. Pretty much a do or die.
    If I can't reach but she's spying I'll try to deal with it, but she's honestly the leader that lessens my enjoyment of the game the most out of them all.
     
  17. tommytoxen

    tommytoxen Warlord

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    worksop
    plot twist: i am england

    i only ever play as her :p
     
  18. Bhawb

    Bhawb Prince

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2018
    Messages:
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    Never had too big of an issue with England. I treat her the same way I would any aggressive civ, I build a bit of an army and tell her to stop spying, or force her to. I do think it is annoying that she has a way to harass you with no direct counterplay for such a long time, it would make more sense if that first spy was only able to do things that benefit England (like stealing techs) until counterspying is an option.
     
  19. Enrico Swagolo

    Enrico Swagolo Deity

    Joined:
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    Methinks you guys aren't up to date. England has been patched since this thread, it has a much stronger UB that comes earlier and is cool to play with, the UA is different and Advanced Actions (AKA kill GP, destroy Production, Science, steal Gold) cannot be done before you research Banking.

    The thread's effectively obsolete at this point.
     

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