England

[Funak]

Since England was the winner of this months poll with a fantastic less than 30% disapproval I figured I'd at least create a discussion-thread for it.

First of all, what do we have to play with?

UA - (The?) Sun Never Sets
+2 Movement for Ships and Embarked units.
Extra spies based on number of city-states

What's to say, really? Extra movement on ships and embarked units is really useful on maps with a lot of water, really not very useful on maps without water. Is that UA good? bad? balanced? Completely depends on the map. On an Island-map this is one of the stronger UAs in the game. The extra spy is helpful, it feels a lot less impactful considering how many extra spies this mod this mod gives players, and how tech-stealing is less reliable than it was in vanilla. Should some of it's power be shifted over to something else so it can be less useless on non-water maps and more balanced on water-maps? Decide that for yourself. All in all I still don't know what to say


UU - Ship of the Line
Compared to a normal frigate:
-10 Hammer Cost (-4%)
+5 Combat Strength (+25%)
+7 Ranged Combat Strength (+25%)
+1 Sight

Probably the reason why most people voted England. This used to be one of the strongest if not the strongest UU in the game. It had a huge advantage over a normal Frigate and combined with the English UA you could dominate the ocean and easily capture your enemies' cities. This was partially because the AI were complete garbage at sea-combat, they couldn't move and attack the the same turn, you could pretty much position your fleet safely and blast their ships down one at the time. The normal frigate was one of the timings you could use to attack the AI back in vanilla and since this unit is a stimmed up super-frigate it pretty much did the same job, only better. The Frigate also lasted for 2 eras, which pretty much meant you were guaranteed to get stuff done before the AI could reach the next level of ship.
However, with the AI being smarter and the Cruiser providing a nice upgrade in between the Frigate and the Battleship the SotL have lost a lot of its power. Don't get me wrong, the SotL is still a LOT stronger than a normal Frigate, probably way too much so. However with the Cruiser just around the corner you have a lot less time to get stuff done with it, and the ability to carry power while upgraded feels a lot more important than actually having a lot of power at one point.
For that reason I would suggest moving some of its monstrous power to provide a promotion instead something that actually carries on while you move on to later eras, assuming you can keep your ships afloat.


UB - Steam Mill
Compared to a normal Factory:
-150 Hammer Cost (-25%)
-1 Gold Maintenance (-33%)
-1 Production/20 Citizen (-20%)
-1 Coal Cost
Available 1 tech earlier
3 Steam Mills gives you an Ideology

I'll be honest with you, I've never liked this building. Sure having a factory cheaper and available earlier is nice. But at the cost of 20% of its production-bonus? I like my unique buildings stronger than their counterparts, not weaker.
Saving some coal isn't a bad idea, but what are you going to spend it on? Coalplants? The argument used to be that by saving coal on their factory they could afford more ships, but the ships all cost Iron now.
The ideology part I actually find the weirdest, it made a lot of sense back when you got ideologies from factories, England industrialize faster gets a faster ideology, now it just feels really odd, as if someone just forgot to change it.
My suggestion would be to pretty much scrap the entire thing. Keep the picture, keep the base building, keep the name (maybe?) and just start it over with a new purpose. Let it cost coal, I mean that's pretty much what coal is there for at this point. And it's not like the British didn't use coal . Focus on making it stronger instead of making it faster, stronger is fun. Add some crazy unique ability to it for all I care. If you want to go all out crazy ocean-focus then add a bonus to water-tiles. Just make sure to get rid of the Ideology-thing, it just feels out of place. There is a lot of potential with a factory-replacement and I feel like this is currently a waste of that. But here's hoping for a better future!

 

[Finarvi]

I agree with all your doubts about Steam Mill. I think it's the weirdest part of England now. And I don't like artificial "build 3 steam mills to get ideology" mini-quest. Not to mention that it's countering slightly more interesting mini-quest to finish 3 policy trees.

 

[Funak]

I agree with all your doubts about Steam Mill. I think it's the weirdest part of England now. And I don't like artificial "build 3 steam mills to get ideology" mini-quest. Not to mention that it's countering slightly more interesting mini-quest to finish 3 policy trees.

4 policy trees, right?


I think England suffers a little bit from indecisiveness. Two of their uniques pretty much requires water-maps to do anything. But then you have the unique building that feels kinda out of place because of this same thing with the other half of the UA, the extra spies. It feels like someone needs to make a decision if England should just be a ocean one-trick pony or if it should be a all around civ with advantage near water.

I also think this forum suffers from people afraid of sharing their opinions, which is kinda sad, but hopefully someone will take pity on England and help me.

 

[TeeInKay]

I am too confused by England to pick on game start. I think of the leader when I want to play a civ so I personally would like their abilities to be based around Elizabeth I.

This is from the wikipedia about her:

Elizabeth's foreign policy was largely defensive. The exception was the English occupation of Le Havre from October 1562 to June 1563, which ended in failure when Elizabeth's Huguenot allies joined with the Catholics to retake the port. Elizabeth's intention had been to exchange Le Havre for Calais, lost to France in January 1558. Only through the activities of her fleets did Elizabeth pursue an aggressive policy. This paid off in the war against Spain, 80% of which was fought at sea. She knighted Francis Drake after his circumnavigation of the globe from 1577 to 1580, and he won fame for his raids on Spanish ports and fleets. An element of piracy and self-enrichment drove Elizabethan seafarers, over which the queen had little control.

• Only through the activities of her fleets did Elizabeth pursue an aggressive policy.
  
• An element of piracy and self-enrichment drove Elizabethan seafarers, over which the queen had little control.

I think these two could be seen to indicate that England under Elizabeth should be a sea dominant Civilization.
In a kind of rough draft idea:

UU:
Melee that replaces galleon with free ranged attack when entering close combat (like the Impi) & Steals gold equal to 33% of the damage inflicted on a city (like the second have of coastal raider vanilla promotion) .
UB:
Better harbor extra defense for city + build boats
UA:
If your naval units are killed in meele there is a chance they become barbarian pirates.


Golden Hind or Golden Hinde was an English galleon best known for her circumnavigation of the globe between 1577 and 1580, captained by Sir Francis Drake.

 

[Funak]

I am too confused by England to pick on game start. I think of the leader when I want to play a civ so I personally would like their abilities to be based around Elizabeth I.

This is from the wikipedia about her:

Elizabeth's foreign policy was largely defensive. The exception was the English occupation of Le Havre from October 1562 to June 1563, which ended in failure when Elizabeth's Huguenot allies joined with the Catholics to retake the port. Elizabeth's intention had been to exchange Le Havre for Calais, lost to France in January 1558. Only through the activities of her fleets did Elizabeth pursue an aggressive policy. This paid off in the war against Spain, 80% of which was fought at sea. She knighted Francis Drake after his circumnavigation of the globe from 1577 to 1580, and he won fame for his raids on Spanish ports and fleets. An element of piracy and self-enrichment drove Elizabethan seafarers, over which the queen had little control.

• Only through the activities of her fleets did Elizabeth pursue an aggressive policy.
  
• An element of piracy and self-enrichment drove Elizabethan seafarers, over which the queen had little control.

I think these two could be seen to indicate that England under Elizabeth should be a sea dominant Civilization.
In a kind of rough draft idea:

UU:
Melee that replaces galleon with free ranged attack when entering close combat (like the Impi) & Steals gold equal to 33% of the damage inflicted on a city (like the second have of coastal raider vanilla promotion) .
UB:
Better harbor extra defense for city + build boats
UA:
If your naval units are killed in meele there is a chance they become barbarian pirates.


Golden Hind or Golden Hinde was an English galleon best known for her circumnavigation of the globe between 1577 and 1580, captained by Sir Francis Drake.

A full remake sounds kinda unreasonable, but I am still happy that you shared your opinions

 

[TeeInKay]

I try bro, my imagination outstretches my modding strength... for now.. I have often wondered why there are not multiple leaders for the same civ. Like with one of the unique changed but the other two the same. My mind tells me it would not be as 'hard' as making a whole new civ from scratch. Surely others have had the idea.

 

[TeeInKay]

It feels like someone needs to make a decision if England should just be a ocean one-trick pony or if it should be a all around civ with advantage near water.

• Only through the activities of her fleets did Elizabeth pursue an aggressive policy.
  
• An element of piracy and self-enrichment drove Elizabethan seafarers, over which the queen had little control.

I think these two could be seen to indicate that England under Elizabeth should be a sea dominant Civilization.

Not that I am able to make the call, but decision.

 

[TeeInKay]

I gotta try to think small. Im tryna be skynet when i shud be sputnik..lol

 

[Funak]

I try bro, my imagination outstretches my modding strength... for now.. I have often wondered why there are not multiple leaders for the same civ. Like with one of the unique changed but the other two the same. My mind tells me it would not be as 'hard' as making a whole new civ from scratch. Surely others have had the idea.

Yeah, pretty much since the release of vanilla. Same UB/UU and just a different UA. I was sure it would actually be released in some expansion but it never happened. Probably means that it's a lot harder to do than it sounds

Not that I am able to make the call, but decision.

Yeah but Gazebo probably wants to keep the UB and UU since fixing new art and models is hard work, and he already mentioned at some other point that he didn't want to add anything else.
The UA while I'm not really a fan of the spy part at all, the naval movement part is pretty unique and there isn't really any reason to remove it unless one finds a way better idea.

 

[Gazebo]

I'm up for a mild (read: fiddling existing knobs) rework of the steam mill, especially now that coal isn't essential for boats. UA and UU are fine, however.

G

 

[Funak]

I'm up for a mild (read: fiddling existing knobs) rework of the steam mill, especially now that coal isn't essential for boats. UA and UU are fine, however.

You don't agree with my analysis of the UU at all?


What about my analysis of the Steam mill? What do you agree with, and what do you think should go?

 

[TeeInKay]

I liked your idea Funak, idk if it's just me, but if the UU wont hold value through the upgrade, I don't bother with the extra cost for it.. I read your past and thought, yeah I might build it if it retained value.

 

[Gazebo]

You don't agree with my analysis of the UU at all?


What about my analysis of the Steam mill? What do you agree with, and what do you think should go?

I think the UU is acceptable as-is, though a debuff on CS and a promotion in its place would be easy enough. I'm thinking we turn it into an 'oceanic chu-ko-nu' and make it weaker, but with two attacks. That would also upgrade well.

The UB is in a weird spot. Factories are intrinsically useful, so the key is finding a way to make England's feel special. A buff to water tiles (steam!) might be useful, or perhaps a boost to great engineer production?

G

 

[Funak]

I think the UU is acceptable as-is, though a debuff on CS and a promotion in its place would be easy enough. I'm thinking we turn it into an 'oceanic chu-ko-nu' and make it weaker, but with two attacks. That would also upgrade well.

I was actually entertaining exactly this thought, main problem however is that I feel like it's way too powerful. Along with England's UA logistics would pretty much guarantee that you can attack and escape every time.
However I'm not really sure what other promotion to suggest. Extra movement feels really weird. Starting with just accuracy 1(or whatever the one for ships is called) is pretty boring. What's left if you remove of those?

• Extra range? Maybe
• Ability to heal outside of friendly border? Not that useful on ranged units, also clashes with the treasure ship world congress project(not really that relevant)
• Ability to ignore ZoC? Not that useful on ranged units either.
• Indirect fire? Maybe, not fantastically useful on units without extra range, clashes with battleship upgrade(not that relevant)
• Siege? Maybe
• Bonus when attacking + heal on kill (fun idea but not really that fitting on a ranged ship)

The UB is in a weird spot. Factories are intrinsically useful, so the key is finding a way to make England's feel special. A buff to water tiles (steam!) might be useful, or perhaps a boost to great engineer production?

Like I think I mentioned earlier, the best idea here is to make a choice if you want England completely Ocean-focused or not.
The building itself is really really late, so you can pretty much add anything to it and it would still make sense. You could probably go as far as to let it add 1 hammer to every improved resource-tile.
In CEP a normal Factory added +1 hammer to all luxuries while the English unique factory added +1 hammer and gold to all luxuries, was available 3 techs earlier. Not really using that as a suggestion I'm just saying pretty much anything can be added to it.

Anyways if we want to do this good the first step would be deciding if we want to force England to settle all cities coastal or not.



EDIT: Btw are factories really that useful? I mean I do build them every time, but other than the two engineer-slots is the building really that good?

 

[TeeInKay]

You didn't like my idea to make it a melee with the 'first strike' like the impi? That by itself would make it very unique and powerful.

 

[Funak]

You didn't like my idea to make it a melee with the 'first strike' like the impi? That by itself would make it very unique and powerful.

There are already 3 unique melee-ships. There is currently one unique ranged ship, with the great galleass and the dromon removed.

 

[Gazebo]

You didn't like my idea to make it a melee with the 'first strike' like the impi? That by itself would make it very unique and powerful.

Not possible in the code, sorry.
G

 

[Funak]

Not possible in the code, sorry.
G

How about you make a decision about the direction to go with the Steam mill and throw out some suggestions when you're done? I could do it myself but I don't feel like it's my place to decide stuff.

 

[Finarvi]

[...]
Like I think I mentioned earlier, the best idea here is to make a choice if you want England completely Ocean-focused or not.
[...]

I think that England should be ocean-focused (UA and UU) but UB should be useful in any city. This way England will remain naval but you don't need every city to be coastial.

About SotL: maybe just give them first promotion (vs naval/vs land) and reduce strength?

 

[Funak]

I think that England should be ocean-focused (UA and UU) but UB should be useful in any city. This way England will remain naval but you don't need every city to be coastial.

Again, it is either this or making the Steam mill into a coastal monster. Either way is fine by me to be honest, but a decision is needed.

About SotL: maybe just give them first promotion (vs naval/vs land) and reduce strength?

That would be the easiest solution. Pretty boring, but good enough.