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England

Discussion in 'Leader Balance' started by Funak, Jun 24, 2015.

  1. Txurce

    Txurce Warlord

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    The AI uses logistics as England -- I've been on the receiving end. Other AI civs use it when they have it, which is not often.

    The SOTL not requiring iron isn't much of a buff over every other frigate, and other ships being able to move after firing is somewhat of a nerf for the SOTL. Removing the Logistics nerf would make them the terrors I think they ought to be.
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2017
    Gokudo01 likes this.
  2. Jakman217

    Jakman217 Chieftain

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    In playing her for the Weekly challenge I think I've got a good description for her. She's the queen of catch up. She can barely carry herself in the early game so she steals everyone else's homework, in return when she hit's the early industrial she can build everything she missed real quick.

    She also just kind of lacks focus and most things you can do with spies aren't going to make or break a game. Her military is bed wetting powerful, but if you don't go to the sea, she's no better than anyone else.

    Edit: Also, while her early spies have no counter play, it at least gets one later. Playing against an aggressive America and manifest destiny I can say that it is quite a bit of a comparison.
     
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2017
  3. phantomaxl1207

    phantomaxl1207 Chieftain

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    As someone has pointed out, the Steam Mill actually has a lower base Yield of 3 :c5production: instead of the Factories' 5 :c5production:. I imagine it ought to be higher as it is an Industrial UB and what not. I would say 9 is a good number.

    The Steam Mill gives 1 :c5production: per 2 :c5citizen: and 4 :c5production: from Manufactories and 3 :c5production: from Coal, as opposed to the Factories 1 :c5production: per :c5citizen: 4 and 2 :c5production: from Manufactories.

    Also it adds 3 :c5gold: to :trade: to and from the City. Comes earlier, cheaper and without Coal required.


    Edit: Also has 1 more Engineer specialist slot (2 Engineers).
     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2018
  4. BazaarJack

    BazaarJack Chieftain

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    Couple of issues with England:

    1. Starting Spy :
    Anyone else think we should get rid of the starting spy? I know many other use Really Advanced Setup to remove England/Mongolia/Venice. I actually enjoy playing against Mongolia/Venice and liberating CS's but I don't enjoy ancient era science/production theft. It doesn't even make sense within the context of history. Also, the AI really seems to target humans players. Even if you're in last place the 1 English spy is there disrupting. I used to re-roll games where England showed up. I've since smartened up, and have created my own "balance layer" that is dependent on VP to remove the spy.

    2. Leader Personality:
    As the apex predator of imperialism for many centuries, I think it's a little silly that we have England set up with a "Coalition" personality. I've changed Elizabeth to max Bully/Conquer minor city states, and given them the bonus to bully yields like the Zulu along with some of the reduction to naval maintenance. Thoughts?
     
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  5. amateurgamer88

    amateurgamer88 Chieftain

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    I do actually want to know the purpose of a spy available starting from Ancient Era. It seems really early and it can have enormous impact. Building a Wonder? It can be disrupted and you can do nothing about it. Saving up for a Warrior to fight barbarians? Nope, England will take your gold and leave you weakened or force you to build your own Warrior. Building that warrior? Of course it gets sabotaged. The worst thing is that we can't do anything about it. In addition, a human player can generally do better with that spy than the AI.
     
    TheBigFundamental likes this.
  6. CppMaster

    CppMaster Chieftain

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    @Gazebo is that true that the player is treated differently than AI by AI? I also have that impression.
     
  7. chicorbeef

    chicorbeef Warlord

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    Is it possible to delay the Advanced Actions alone to Classical or Medieval Era? That would be nice.
     
    TheBigFundamental likes this.
  8. Zanteogo

    Zanteogo Chieftain

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    I always found the change to give England a spy from the start of the game strange.. it pretty much means whomever they decide to pick on will be out of the game, particularly the human player who will almost always be at a large production disadvantage already.

    I would change them to gain the additional spy like they used to, when they first gain a spy.

    To balance this they will need an increase somewhere else, because they arnt exactly a power civ as it is. Just a civ who can cripple who ever they run into early game. (Seems like a contradiction but in practice it’s not)
     
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  9. tu_79

    tu_79 Warlord

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    I think english spies could be a great addition if they were not killing great people or sabotaging constructions. I'd be fine with tech stealing (this is actually benefitial to her neighbours, us included), gold and science stealing and revealing city stats (watching which wonders the others are building). But getting your great people killed at this stage is really annoying, enough to make us want to ban England.
     
  10. BiteInTheMark

    BiteInTheMark Chieftain

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    England as it is, is a weird construction. Look for example at Germany, Babylon, Zulu or Denmark. All their UA and UB, even some UU are going hand in hand to maximize in the end the benefits of all the abilities.
    But what is doing England? You have one more spy (I was really surprised I only got one more spy, cause the description gave me the impression, her UA would give me more spies in addition to the regular one in renaissance), a cheaper fleet with a really strong UU and a good industrial UB. But nothing special. No synergies.
    I would expect something more from a nation which was once the most powerful nation over a long period of time. (Yeah, other nations may be as much powerful in their period of time for a longer time, but not that global like GB was)

    Historically, giving England the abilities of Venice or Mongolia would make much more sense to me than giving them to their originals. Assimilating smaller regional powers by military pressure or diplomacy, even with a lot of financial power was one of the keystones of Englands success. But I didnt see that represented in their gameplay.
    I could imagine they get more spies, like every 2 eras, beginning with classic to improve their espionage part, stay with lvl 2 spies but remove the naval benefits. CS with infiltrated spies are 25% easier to bully and ships are 25% better at bullying CS.
    For a greater synergy, steam mills generate yields, every time you get tribute/heavy tribute from a city state.
    OR
    CS with strategic ressource gift one permanent copy of their strategic ressource to england, if a heavy tribute was forced.

    In my eys, such combination would represent englands strenght much more then the present one.
     
  11. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch

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  12. BiteInTheMark

    BiteInTheMark Chieftain

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    Thats your opinion, I have mine. ;)
     
  13. BazaarJack

    BazaarJack Chieftain

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    Based on what? We aren't talking about balance here. Sure, England is balanced, but it's a silly mechanic that ruins perfectly good games. Can you answer to this sentiment?

    Also, I didn't bring this up as a "nerf England" rant. They are generally underpowered in my opinion and are regularly losing to primitive cultures (the Maya/Inca/Aztec/etc). I'm experimenting with 3/4UC to find a balance that gives later blooming civs a chance on smaller maps.

    If we agree that the Ancient era spy isn't a fun mechanic (except possibly when playing as England, although it's pretty passive and doesn't take much thought), then surely we can find a makeweight.
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2019
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  14. Enginseer

    Enginseer Salientia of the Community Patch Supporter

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    England is fine.
     
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  15. CppMaster

    CppMaster Chieftain

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    Synergy is not needed if invidual components are strong enough.

    As for problematic spy since the very beginning, how about if instead England have twice amount of spies. Would that be OP?
    Does England have additional spy, because of Mi6 with James Bond? :p
     
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  16. BazaarJack

    BazaarJack Chieftain

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    Yeah, that must be it. I don't see why we can't have a wooden Panzer for Germany starting at Classical. It doesn't make sense, but I'm sure it could be balanced.
     
  17. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch

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    I'm sorry, what? If this is some kind of Rule Britannia patriotic jingo nonsense, you can mosy along.

    G
     
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  18. BazaarJack

    BazaarJack Chieftain

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    My interactions with you have always been poor, and I don't expect that to change.

    You focus on the one element that almost has nothing to do with the point I'm making. That sentence is also explained in the following sentence. Should we not say that the Maya/Inca/Aztecs are primitive cultures? Is this some cozy liberal elite silliness on your part? The historical record / limitations of the English language / the dangerously PC culture that is pervasive in academia - pick the one that suits you.

    Also, let me be clear : Early-game "primitive" civilizations winning is not a bad thing, it keeps the game interesting. However, the current balance seems to favor a primitive "early-game" civs that can snowball. Although, I tip my hat to the efforts that have improved the balance over time.
     
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  19. chicorbeef

    chicorbeef Warlord

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    Would disabling Advanced Actions until the Medieval Era be reasonable and/or possible?
     
  20. pineappledan

    pineappledan Warlord

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    Disabling advanced actions until renaissance, when everyone else gets access to their own spies, sounds fair to me. If taking away the “harmful” spy actions hurts England that much, then maybe they get 1 more spy at medieval?

    I will echo other people’s sentiment about England’s spy. While not necessarily unbalanced, it is a “feels bad, man” mechanic. It gives England a way to pick on a single competitor civ for 3 full eras with absolutely no counter. It just doesn’t feel... fair. At all. England can steal gold, kill GPs, steal GWs and block unit/wonder production, and all you can do is ask the AI not to. And maybe they will do what you ask them to, but otherwise you have to wipe England out entirely just so they will stop exploiting a completely uncounterable UA. If they could only steal techs and give vision until you are equipped to deal with them properly then I would have no reason to complain.

    I don’t necessarily have an issue with England’s purported lack of synergy, which I don’t even think is an accurate statement. Bonus movement and maintenance combined with a unique ship, combined with a production-centric UB sounds like synergy to me.

    And no, the British get spies because they have historically been extremely good at espionage; not because of James Bond. Or rather, you could say tha James Bond exists because Britain is so damn good at espionage. The UA’s name, Perfidious Albion, is a reference to this. The cracking of the Enigma machine and the massive counterintelligence operations which preceded the Normandy invasion are only the most well-known examples of Britain being the undisputed masters of spying.
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2019

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