Enhanced Naval Warfare for Vox Populi

[Infixo]

@Asterix Rage Some comments actually apply to Vox Populi, not the mod. Maybe you should also post them to the main forum?

- Because Destroyer is at combustion, Modern Destroyer should be at Electronics (to separate them a little bit more) I didn't want to change VP-things, people are used to them, I think... but as I rule I agree that more spacing is ok.
- Because Attack and Nuclear Sub are bloody powerfull, I suggest -1 mov These are same stats as in VP (Attack=Submarine). The Submarine I have added, is actually a weaker VP submarine with the same name. Anyway, why do you think they are OP? You can't one-hit a destroyer even with WolfPack3.
- Because Great Admirals are spending their time running after Combat Unit, I suggest +1 or +2 move at Electronics or Computer Same - no change from VP. But I have a feeling that Admirals always were lacking that 1 movement?
- Because all the advanced Naval Units need Aluminium or Uranium, a decent littoral Unit using Coal should be welcome for the weakers opponents. (Range combat allowed from inside city) Pls. explain, I am not grasping the idea.
- I'm still not convince about the Sub bonus on Cruise missile. (Gameplay matter. The Destroyer and sub should remain the Sub counter-attackers) You are a gameplay purist, I am more into putting real life things into the game, if possible. Truth is that those two lines are very similar nowadays. Hence my approach - similar, but still different.
- "Enhanced Naval Warfare" you said? It would make sense to include a expensive Naval Academy giving 20 or 25 XP[/QUOTE] Excellent idea (and easy to do). Maybe this could also extend movements of Admirals. I just need to find a nice icon...

 

[Infixo]

- Because Attack and Nuclear Sub are bloody powerfull, I suggest -1 mov

I would actually start with making NucSub with range 1. Since battleship was downed from 3 to 2, there is no reason for NusSub to stay at 2. Also, torpedos are not long range weapons, Sub has to come relatively close to the ship. That way this 1 move is used to get closer.

 

[Asterix Rage]

@Asterix Rage Some comments actually apply to Vox Populi, not the mod. Maybe you should also post them to the main forum?

- Because Destroyer is at combustion, Modern Destroyer should be at Electronics (to separate them a little bit more) I didn't want to change VP-things, people are used to them, I think... but as I rule I agree that more spacing is ok.
- Because Attack and Nuclear Sub are bloody powerfull, I suggest -1 mov These are same stats as in VP (Attack=Submarine). The Submarine I have added, is actually a weaker VP submarine with the same name. Anyway, why do you think they are OP? You can't one-hit a destroyer even with WolfPack3.
- Because Great Admirals are spending their time running after Combat Unit, I suggest +1 or +2 move at Electronics or Computer Same - no change from VP. But I have a feeling that Admirals always were lacking that 1 movement?
- Because all the advanced Naval Units need Aluminium or Uranium, a decent littoral Unit using Coal should be welcome for the weakers opponents. (Range combat allowed from inside city) Pls. explain, I am not grasping the idea.
- I'm still not convince about the Sub bonus on Cruise missile. (Gameplay matter. The Destroyer and sub should remain the Sub counter-attackers) You are a gameplay purist, I am more into putting real life things into the game, if possible. Truth is that those two lines are very similar nowadays. Hence my approach - similar, but still different.
- "Enhanced Naval Warfare" you said? It would make sense to include a expensive Naval Academy giving 20 or 25 XP

Excellent idea (and easy to do). Maybe this could also extend movements of Admirals. I just need to find a nice icon...[/QUOTE]


A Naval Academy Icon :
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=128156150

Littoral Unit :
When you achieve Rocketry and Electronics, if you lack of Aluminium/Uranium you can't get Missile Destroyers, Missile Cruisers or Subs. No Naval Units at all actually.
Hense this idea : A nice clever Patrol Boat as a range attack Naval Unit.
- Can't end its turn in Ocean (Like Dromon)
- About Combat 50/60 and Range Combat 50/60. Able to Range Attack (2 tiles) from inside a city.
- Need Coal (or nothing) to be built. Available at Radio or further.
- Allow decent naval defencive actions to weakers without the precious metal.
- By the way, allow anybody to use a cheap Unit to patrol Coast.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrol_boat#/media/File:INS_Sumitra_(P59).jpg
https://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/the-navys-long-overdue-smart-deadly-patrol-boat-has-a-1631598708
Modele :
Udaloy-class Destroyer
https://forums.civfanatics.com/resources/civ5-udaloy-class-destroyer.22030/
Z23-class Destroyer
https://forums.civfanatics.com/resources/civ5-wwii-unit-pack-04-german-airforce-and-navy.17412/
Danae-class Cruiser
https://forums.civfanatics.com/resources/civ5-wwii-unit-pack-03-poland.17405/


EDIT : A Patrol boat that see subs on coastal tiles

 

[Infixo]

A Naval Academy Icon :
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=128156150

Littoral Unit :
When you achieve Rocketry and Electronics, if you lack of Aluminium/Uranium you can't get Missile Destroyers, Missile Cruisers or Subs. No Naval Units at all actually.
Hense this idea : A nice clever Patrol Boat as a range attack Naval Unit.
- Can't end its turn in Ocean (Like Dromon)
- About Combat 50/60 and Range Combat 50/60. Able to Range Attack (2 tiles) from inside a city.
- Need Coal (or nothing) to be built. Available at Radio or further.
- Allow decent naval defencive actions to weakers without the precious metal.
- By the way, allow anybody to use a cheap Unit to patrol Coast.

Seems that there’s a mod for everything

Littoral - those late units have all Aluminum and this again is idea from VP. There is a switch from Coal/Iron/Oil to Alu, so naturally you wont be able to upgrade all unis. I dont know the reasoning behind that. It promotes warmongers, i think or wide play in general, where you have access to many resources. Small empire, with limited resources would be left with outdated units, an easy target.

So all in all that kind of Patrol Boat is a nice concept, I like it.
Shoot from city and have 2 range at the time, kind of op as for a little boat...
Also, no res req at all is against all rules, i would go maybe for Oil, it is usually the most accessible resource.

 

[Asterix Rage]

Shoot from city and have 2 range at the time, kind of op as for a little boat...
Also, no res req at all is against all rules, i would go maybe for Oil, it is usually the most accessible resource.

You are right.
Patrol Boat 1 Range. 1 Oil.
NuSub 1 Range

 

[Infixo]

@Asterix Rage Can you check maintenance costs on Supercarrier, Misiile Cruiser and Destroyer, compared to other units? They should be higher, but i’m interested how much they are?

 

[Infixo]

Posted Version 1.2
Extra maintenance costs for Supercarrier, Missile Destroyer and Missile Cruiser are removed. They were scaling in a weird way, not as I intended (up to hundreds gold per unit).

 

[Infixo]

Posted Version 1.3, updated for Vox Populi 1-3.

 

[Tekamthi]

hey infixo love your mod here.. I rarely run w/o this anymore.

I have a 'naval academy' in MB+, pulled from 'friendly waters' mod, and I caught your speculation of maybe adding one a few posts ago. The one i've included requires some lua to work; so making them compatible is a little more challenging than just adding sql... if you're gonna add one here, maybe we could work out a default VP naval academy? either that or maybe I'll change the name in MB+... I believe someone in another thread mentioned that there is a naval academy in one of enginseer's mods too.

re: your discussion about more naval unit-lines.. I was considering something similar, though it would probably be more appropriate to have included here than in what i'm working on, given that ENW is very unit-focused and MB+ is not...

I generally like the idea of having an attack-and-move ranged line separate from a ranged-ends-attack line.. the medeival/rennaissance "bomb ships" come to mind here..

Alternatively/additionally, I wonder if naval melee could not be 2-lines.. one heavy, main-warship line, and one light, maybe recon naval line. Will keep my eyes on your thread here....

 

[Infixo]

@Tekamthi Glad you like it, thx!
I am torn about the 3rd line idea . I would like to implement it but it should be supported in VP (my mod only extends VP mechanics onto new units), and this ain't gonna happen. I really miss good old 3-range battleships - that's how the "normal" world to me should look like in Civ5 and really don't care about AI in this particular case. AI gets so many bonuses, really I can live with that one on human-side. And without good long-range "shoot and stay" naval line, the 3-lines idea is too far from VP. I am really torn.

Anyway, beside Naval Academy (which should make its way into core VP ideally), there's an idea of patrol ships that can only fight in coastal waters. A very nice one, for defensive purposes and less resource-restricted.

 

[Tekamthi]

Cool, I actually echo your thoughts there. Simple, subtle changes to existing VP are all thats really needed at this point, and a 3rd (or 4th) unit line at sea goes well beyond this. That said, I expect that VP AI, with proper unit flavors and restrictions (ie any 3rd line should have built-in limit imo, like resource req, or purchase-only, so AI still mostly builds the others) could handle an attack-and-no-move ranged ship (it can handle attack-and-no-move land units of all kinds after all), as long as it didnt skew the unit mix overall. More melee, like the coastal waters ships you mentioned, I would guess could work too, its more a matter of somehow encouraging AI to build a well-balanced navy through flavors and restrictions I think. I wonder if a 3rd line wouldn't fit your VP EE mod a little better than here? I actually like how you haven't over-included non-essentials(something I'm often guilty of), and have essentially just filled gaps in VP with ENW.

I am "developing" (glorified word for hacking other people's good work) MB+ to keep 3-range battleships as an option, and included a tag for the missile cruiser you have here. Will try to keep things compatible as long as we don't collide w/ too many direct conflicts (none so far I think). I am experimenting with alternative options for tackling the same underlying naval gameplay issues that G has been focused on recently, and will have much more of a "rules" focus than you've taken here. The direction you've taken so far is perfect in that regard, from where I stand.

 

[Infixo]

That said, I expect that VP AI, with proper unit flavors and restrictions (ie any 3rd line should have built-in limit imo, like resource req, or purchase-only, so AI still mostly builds the others) could handle an attack-and-no-move ranged ship (it can handle attack-and-no-move land units of all kinds after all), as long as it didnt skew the unit mix overall. More melee, like the coastal waters ships you mentioned, I would guess could work too, its more a matter of somehow encouraging AI to build a well-balanced navy through flavors and restrictions I think.

As I understand from discussions and from looking into the dll code a little, the problem is not acquiring those ships. AI is really good at producing or buying things, that I've in the code myself. Problem is using them as this requires changes to tactical AI parts (i.e. how AI "thinks" during battles). As I understand, we've reached limits here. We would need many, many, many more dev-hours put into this to get a real result. I am not surprised that G. doesn't want to do it.

I wonder if a 3rd line wouldn't fit your VP EE mod a little better than here? I actually like how you haven't over-included non-essentials(something I'm often guilty of), and have essentially just filled gaps in VP with ENW.

Sometimes less is better than more. I've learned that after my Real Great People mod for Civ6. Basically, the simpler the mod, the more people use it.
And yes, if some form of 3rd line would make into VP, I would definetely adjust VPEE for that as well. Doing that only there is not enough, as those ships would not be "upgradeable" any further. Once the line starts it is rather better to continue it.

 

[Infixo]

Posted Version 1.4. Dreadnought and Missile Cruiser start with +1 range.

 

[ryanmusante]

Sometimes less is better than more. I've learned that after my Real Great People mod for Civ6. Basically, the simpler the mod, the more people use it.

The point is valid here about simplicity. For this mod, units are added and tweaked to not interrupt the existing VP balance. This adds value without causing displacement.
I think there is a low limit before it becomes excessive. I feel that six is a good number to stay at. Is there plans to change it?
Will the naval academy(expensive) even be necessary, would it be utilized by the AI appropriately?
How can I know that the AI is upgrading these units as they would with land melee? Is there a different code used for land, sea, air or is it the same across the board?

 

[bigcat88]

Problem is in aluminium. Helicopters requiers it, aircraftrs and with this mod also 2 ships need it. If u are not going autocracy or not playing for Russia) - u will not see mislle cruisers or destroyers in the game(
I know that it is not immersive but maybe let both upgraded last two ships use original resorces?(iron and coal?)

 

[ryanmusante]

I know that it is not immersive but maybe let both upgraded last two ships use original resorces?(iron and coal?)

You mean the likelihood is less or you never see them in the games you've played?

 

[bigcat88]

likelihood is less. I only starting game with this mod, but I am almost sure that there will only a few of this units in the world.
Last two months I play very long games till 2030-2040 year(with only cultural victory and domination enabled) - I never see a free aluminium. Only lucky Autocracy civs have some free aluminium.
Always there are many free oil, but never aluminium. If there was a way to swap 2 oil for 1 aluminium)))
Play on strategic balance resources, continents map to be sure all civs have all res.
I even disabled aluminium request for spaceship factories(cause that victory condition is off, I don't build them, but AI will build so don't want them to use aluminium)
So if in base game even in information era when all civs know all techs - there are already zero aluminium free, and most civs building fighters and heavy bombers - what will be with this mod?
Only the autocracy civ and Russia will have those extra cool ships?

 

[Infixo]

Aluminum is limited. Any unit that requires it will be limited by default. That is the whole point of requiring aluminum to build a unit. It’s up to you where do you want to spend it: jets, heli, ships, subs, etc.

 

[ryanmusante]

Aluminum is limited. Any unit that requires it will be limited by default. That is the whole point of requiring aluminum to build a unit. It’s up to you where do you want to spend it: jets, heli, ships, subs, etc.

And that in my mind isn't necessarily a bad thing being that the particular units unlocked through aluminum are quite powerful and would be a bit off balanced to have too many of them in the game. Just as in real life, there are a limited number of carriers at sea.

 

[bigcat88]

Today will start a game, a few days later will post a reply from Information Era.

@Infixo any idea to add some cutted version of JetFighter(F-18 Hornet)/Bomber(X-47B) for carriers? Seems AI cant do like human(move usual fighter/heavy bomber to carrier and then upgrade it to Jet/Stealth on carrier). It is not fair, I think.