Enhanced Naval Warfare for Vox Populi

[Infixo]

@civplayer33 ENW basically doesn’t touch anything in Industrial era, changes start from Modern. Maybe that is why I simply didn’t include Ironclad and Cruiser.

 

[civplayer33]

Maybe that is why I simply didn’t include Ironclad and Cruiser.

Not sure why the snark; I was just trying to provide feedback.
Also, from your file ENW_Units.sql:

UPDATE Units
SET ObsoleteTech = 'TECH_COMBUSTION'
WHERE Type = 'UNIT_IRONCLAD';
/*
DELETE FROM Unit_ResourceQuantityRequirements WHERE UnitType = 'UNIT_IRONCLAD';
INSERT INTO Unit_ResourceQuantityRequirements (UnitType, ResourceType, Cost)
VALUES
    ('UNIT_IRONCLAD', 'RESOURCE_COAL', 1),
    ('UNIT_IRONCLAD', 'RESOURCE_IRON', 1);
*/

Ooops, huh?

Anyway, I'll just do it myself.

Edit: I just saw that these two units are actually scaled anyway with your mod, so I guess I just disagree about the sizes, but it's fine.

 

[Infixo]

Not sure why the snark;

I am not a native speaker, so I try to write plain, simple sentences, without any extra-meaning.

Ooops, huh?

I really don’t know what you refer to.

 

[civplayer33]

I am not a native speaker, so I try to write plain, simple sentences, without any extra-meaning.

I really don’t know what you refer to.

I was referring to the fact that your mod does indeed modify the Ironclad and Cruiser, which I wasn't aware of when I posted my suggestion; I then realized it when I checked the files and I guess I just disagree about the size of Ironclad and Cruiser (I made them 15 and 20% smaller now, respectively).

I guess you just forgot about your mod changing Cruiser and Ironclad size and then I read too much into your reply, probably because I've been grumpy this week anyway.
So, sorry about that.

For anyone interested, I changed the Cruiser size (scale) to 0.06 and Ironclad to 0.085 and it feels much more natural to me now.

 

[civplayer33]

Found two bugs / inconsistencies relating to units becoming obsolete (or not):

For some background, I should say that I like end game units not becoming obsolete if their upgrade has certain restrictions (like the Stealth Bomber or Supercarrier) or requires a different Strategic Resource (like the Missile Cruiser), but other units should indeed obsolete once they can be replaced. The Battleship not becoming obsolete even though it can be upgraded to the Missile Cruiser once Stealth is discovered, is a good example for the latter case of not becoming obsoleted (the Carrier as well). However, this mod does not apply the same standard to other units:

1) The Attack Submarine does not obsolete, so it can still be built once Robotics is discovered and the Nuclear Submarine becomes available. This is despite the Nuclear Submarine requiring the same Strategic Resource as the Attack Submarine (Aluminum) and not having any restrictions.

2) The Modern Destroyer is the second issue: it obsoletes once Stealth is researched even though, with the ENW mod, Stealth doesn't provide it's upgrade unit (Missile Destroyer, which becomes available with Lasers, instead). Also, it shouldn't obsolete at all, for consistency's sake, since its upgrade unit requires Aluminum.

So I would recommend removing the obsoletion for the Modern Destroyer, to be consistent with the Battleship and Carrier, and adding an obsoletion for the Attack Submarine at Robotics, to be consistent with all the other units.

Edit: I saw in your mod files that you planned on adding the obsoletion at Laser for the Modern Destroyer but then commented it out; I guess you just forgot that the Destroyer (which is called Modern Destroyer in ENW) already had an ObsoleteTech from vanilla.

For anyone wanting to make these changes until Infixo fixes them (or not):

you have to insert the following line into the file ENW_Units.sql in the main ENW mod folder (probably best to insert this around line 115):

UPDATE Units SET ObsoleteTech = NULL WHERE Type = 'UNIT_DESTROYER';

and change line 63 in the file Unit_AttackSubmarine.sql in the AttackSubmarine folder such that you replace "NULL" with "TECH_ROBOTICS", so it looks like this:

    ('UNIT_ATTACK_SUBMARINE', 'UNITCLASS_ATTACK_SUBMARINE', 'DOMAIN_SEA', 'UNITCOMBAT_SUBMARINE', 'TECH_PENICILIN', 'TECH_ROBOTICS', 'UNITAI_ASSAULT_SEA',

 

[MorphBer]

Are the upgrade costs in sync or are they changed?

E.g. does it cost the same to get from Cruiser to Battleship when you have Dreadnoughts in between?

 

[civplayer33]

Just a heads up: with the recent changes to the way the Interception_I (-IV) promotions work this mod needs to be updated by adding the relevant promotions to the affected units.

That is, in the files ENW_Units.sql, Unit_MissileDestroyer.sql and Unit_Supercarrier.sql the preceding Interception promotions have to be added. That means, for every line that looks like this:

    ('UNIT_MISSILE_CRUISER', 'PROMOTION_INTERCEPTION_III');

the prerequisite promotions need to be added, so in this example from ENW_Units.sql the above line would receive two preceding lines for Interception I and II:

    ('UNIT_MISSILE_CRUISER', 'PROMOTION_INTERCEPTION_I'),
    ('UNIT_MISSILE_CRUISER', 'PROMOTION_INTERCEPTION_II'),
    ('UNIT_MISSILE_CRUISER', 'PROMOTION_INTERCEPTION_III');

Apply the same principle in the other two files and you're good. I would also recommend deleting the line that gives Interception I to the destroyer (in file Unit_EarlyDestroyer.sql) to make it fit better with the progression.

 

[Asterix Rage]

Just a heads up: with the recent changes to the way the Interception_I (-IV) promotions work this mod needs to be updated by adding the relevant promotions to the affected units.

That is, in the files ENW_Units.sql, Unit_MissileDestroyer.sql and Unit_Supercarrier.sql the preceding Interception promotions have to be added. That means, for every line that looks like this:

    ('UNIT_MISSILE_CRUISER', 'PROMOTION_INTERCEPTION_III');

the prerequisite promotions need to be added, so in this example from ENW_Units.sql the above line would receive two preceding lines for Interception I and II:

    ('UNIT_MISSILE_CRUISER', 'PROMOTION_INTERCEPTION_I'),
    ('UNIT_MISSILE_CRUISER', 'PROMOTION_INTERCEPTION_II'),
    ('UNIT_MISSILE_CRUISER', 'PROMOTION_INTERCEPTION_III');

Apply the same principle in the other two files and you're good. I would also recommend deleting the line that gives Interception I to the destroyer (in file Unit_EarlyDestroyer.sql) to make it fit better with the progression.

may i ask a patch ?

 

[civplayer33]

may i ask a patch ?

Here's my folder with the mentioned changes (including the changes further up on this page, that I mentioned in my previous post). I also changed one more thing: I removed obsoletion from the Rocket Missile unit, since it makes sense to have different missile units with different range and strength and manufacturing expense in the Information Era IMO; if you don't agree you'll have to change the second "NULL" in line 76 of the file Unit_RocketMissile.sql to

'TECH_ADVANCED_BALLISTICS'

 

[Asterix Rage]

it makes sense to have different missile units with different range and strength and manufacturing expense in the Information Era IMO

agreed

 

[vyyt]

Appreciate all your comments. They are very thorough and it is clear that you've tested things

Thank you for your detailed reply and sorry for my own late response - the children were taking turns in becoming sick, so I barely managed to do some work over the evenings.

I understand/agree with most of your points, but I have a few further comments:

I will not comment on the models or textures.

Ok, I will upload the Missile Cruiser textures in a separate post, so people can update them by themselves if they want to.

All the ships from late eras have been re-scaled to properly show their size in relation to others from those eras.

Well, we have giant crossbowmen towering and shooting over whole cities, so it is difficult to choose the right size for the units. I actually found out that I was using ENW 1.5 and the newest version is 1.6, so I may have been commenting on an older version. The sizes of the ships in the sample screenshot in your opening post seems alright to me now. Last time I played, the early destroyers were really tiny, you could barely tell what the pin needle was supposed to represent unless you zoomed in to max. I checked the files and you set the size to 0.09 in the version 1.6, while I am setting it to 0.095 in my mod-mod, so I think we are in agreement here

Sure is. But tedious as hell. There is no tool for that, so it is a manual work. You need to find the torpedo effect in subs files and then change .ftsxml and .fxsxml files from the destroyer to contain this effect.

Oh bummer. I have no idea about the format of the files. Probably not worth the hassle as you describe it. I suppose that as with everything regarding Civ5, there is no user reference manual explaining what the things in the fxsxml do and how the things work? How did you learn how to make the awesome missile launch effects?

Again - a matter of tech tree design. I put ENW sub one era before VP sub. I never checked for Oil.
Well, it means that you beeline So, you skip one era of "ship development". It is a matter of tech tree and placement of various things. Ships tend to jump around a bit.

Here I have to respectfully disagree. Oil and subs are in the same tier, I would not call it a bee-lining (do not know the definition, but I understand bee-lining as shooting ahead by at least 1 tier).

I don't know how it is now, but I remember that when I was creating ENW subs were weak in general. Also, early subs in RL were extremely weak in direct combat. Their only (and main) advantage was being invisible. They were supposed to attack first and VP does a well job here giving huge promos when attacking.

Yes, they were very weak if discovered and attacked, but if they managed to sneak in undetected, they delivered a very heavy punch (U-47 sinking the Royal Oak battleship, a US sub sinking the Shinano aircraft carrier, etc.) ... only to be sunk soon afterwards by the escorts. I like to think of them as glass canons - very strong on offense - but very very weak on defense, stealthy - but slightly slower. I tried changing them in this way, let's see how they will perform. There has been some discussion regarding subs and their promotions recently in the balance thread and it seems that they are heading in the direction I like.

One more important thing - I would like to thank you for writing a very clean and easy-to-understand code. I have learnt a lot from ENW and it inspired me to create my own mod-mod focused on modern warfare shuffling the techs and adding 2 more ships in a new upgrade line / role and a few more units. Of course, it is referencing the great ENW as a dependency! I will upload it to the repository once I add the icons for the units and it feels more polished in general.

 

[Asterix Rage]

I have learnt a lot from ENW and it inspired me to create my own mod-mod focused on modern warfare shuffling the techs and adding 2 more ships in a new upgrade line / role and a few more units. Of course, it is referencing the great ENW as a dependency! I will upload it to the repository once I add the icons for the units and it feels more polished in general.

Any news about it?
Need help with Unit Icons?

 

[vyyt]

Any news about it?
Need help with Unit Icons?

Wow, thank you! I am still fiddling with the tech tree, but I suppose it is in a playable state.

I think I will upload it soon as a WIP, otherwise I will never finish it It does not include many new units, actually just 2. The rest is just tweaking ENW a bit. I think I will be able to make the small unit icons by myself, but it would be great if you could help me with the bigger unit badges. I will prepare some materials.

I will finalize the tech tree reshuffle and upload it. Honestly, it is just a personal flavor-adding modmod adding a new line of ships (which the AI may not use optimally) and somewhat lowering the probability of things like having tanks and wooden ships fighting alongside, etc. I am afraid that the Deity players with deep understanding of the the game balance who play to win optimally won't like the tech reshuffle as I did not think much about building/wonder balance/spacing. So I don't want to waste too much precious time of yours, but any help will be appreciated.

 

[Asterix Rage]

I think I will upload it soon

 

[Joey Diamond]

Is this mod still balanced with the recent VP?

 

[Asterix Rage]

Is this mod still balanced with the recent VP?

Version 1.6 is not.
Here is a version modified to deal properly with VP(8-5)
Based on changes made by civplayer33 + few others from me.

EDIT : I don't advise to use Enhanced Naval Warfare for Vox Populi (v 1.6.r07) !
Not with vp(8-21) or above. Instead, try the version from ProCatGamer

 

[Joey Diamond]

Thanks!

 

[ProCatGamer]

So after my attempt of fixing lnfixo Wonder Expended mod I thought I attempt to update this mod to the recent VP (8-21b) version where alot of naval unit was changed (removing the ability to shoot and move and combat changes to ranged naval units, combat strength of the atk sub as well as resource changes to melee naval units + abit of alteration on combat which was my own edit based on comparing ranged to melee naval units )

 

[Asterix Rage]

@ProCatGamer

for the update.
Would you mind to have a look on the outdated version (v 1.6.r07) we made civplayer33 and I
All changes are not so pertinente but there are many interesting stuff like Advanced Destroyer never obsolete, Sub coming earlier, new Unit Icon for Missile Cruiser and so on...
Good luke and welcome on the modmod scene

WinMerge is a good tool to see the differences between to versions...
and XnView to see .dds

 

[ProCatGamer]

@ProCatGamer

for the update.
Would you mind to have a look on the outdated version (v 1.6.r07) we made civplayer33 and I
All changes are not so pertinente but there are many interesting stuff like Advanced Destroyer never obsolete, Sub coming earlier, new Unit Icon for Missile Cruiser and so on...
Good luke and welcome on the modmod scene

WinMerge is a good tool to see the differences between to versions...
and XnView to see .dds

I already have upon seeing all your amazing changes !!
If there is any other changes or unbalance do not hesitate to bring up!