[Extension] Enlightenment Era for VP (5.0)

[CAYM]

This is true, but for gameplay it feels that you can't fit these two so close together. As usual in civ, the ship names are not completely helpful.
In all this, I am most interested in ensuring consistent and smooth gameplay. I understand others' demands may vary. I won't move the original Caravel and so the Carrack comes two columns later.


I understand that for the gameplay, replacing the Caravel delays the deep-sea exploration for Korea, which captures this historical idea. This motivates it being the earlier ship, even if it doesn't line up on the international timeline so well. Of course, it is hard in the earlier eras to line up the actual years with the eras. Agriculture wasn't discovered in parts of South-West USA until like ~1000 AD!
We can put it at Caravel if you prefer.
p.s. your quote here is perhaps a bit aggressive in translation. I won't take offence


I didn't understand this part. A unique unit is not precisely the thing it replaces, right?

That's fair. As I said, I didn't make this change myself it is already in the v2 of the mod. We can change to Dragoon, that's fine.


Yes, could be. Again, Samurai exist for such a long period of time, starting in at least 1100s. For the gameplay, it would move it away from Dojo, which is probably desirable?


Yes I understand why you did this. I chose to revert the Longswordsman icon because a) I thought it wouldn't be clear it was a different unit and b) the icon was in use in another mod

If you want to attach the turtle ship to the karak, you'll need to change the upgrade. Currently, the turtle ship upgrade is replaced with a karak.

Infinite Mobius loop.

 

[hokath]

Yes I saw this after your first post. But I will swap it to Caravel as you suggest so in fact it is now correct

 

[Lumpyacidfish]

time, less than 100 years apart.

Yes, the original Enlightenment version was easily possible in the tech tree when Astronomy was in use. However, you've moved the carrack to the end of the Renaissance, breaking the historical accuracy. Caravels and carracks were developed in Portugal at roughly the same time, less than 100 years apart.

Furthermore, I play TSL all the time, and the current carrack release date is quite far behind. In this case, it should be considered a carrack.

And you don't know anything about Korean history or the Geobukseon. As a Korean, I'll be more accurate in my approach. Korea's deep seas are shallow, so ships have flat bottoms, allowing for frequent ship transitions. Therefore, Korea didn't venture out to the ocean at that time. On the other hand, Japan, with its Pacific Ocean, built narrow-bottomed ships like carracks to cross the ocean. This is how the great admiral Yi Sun-sin was able to achieve such a remarkable victory over Japan in the Korean-Japanese War. Instead, Korea lost the opportunity to venture out to the ocean. The turtle ship is both a source of pride for Korea and a testament to its unfortunate history.

And my wife's father is a Cossack. I'm probably more knowledgeable about the history and actions of the Cossacks. In Cossack territory, they perform horse tricks. This shouldn't be used as a replacement for the Uhlans. Also, increasing combat power and deliberately reducing ranged combat power to 0 creates cognitive dissonance when clicking on units.

In this case, the samurai appear relatively early. In this case, there are two options:

Another option is to use the samurai as a replacement for the two-handed swordsman. However, this will be more complicated.

Also, the design of the two-handed swordsman seems weaker. That's why I intentionally gave the existing infantry stronger armor. Historically, before the medieval nobility became cuirassiers, some middle-class infantrymen wore well-armored armor. (Those without money carried spears.)

I changed the image to reflect this historical research.


Now that you've taken over from me and ushered in the Age of Enlightenment, these demands will arise. I also faced opposition when I first added the Tower of Belem, several Wonder Movements, and the Kaiser Society and the World Wonders of the Textile Mill.

Please note that this is a process for improving the mod. I appreciate the effort to improve it.

And you don't know anything about Korean history or the Geobukseon. As a Korean, I'll be more accurate in my approach. Korea's deep seas are shallow, so ships have flat bottoms, allowing for frequent ship transitions. Therefore, Korea didn't venture out to the ocean at that time. On the other hand, Japan, with its Pacific Ocean, built narrow-bottomed ships like carracks to cross the ocean. This is how the great admiral Yi Sun-sin was able to achieve such a remarkable victory over Japan in the Korean-Japanese War. Instead, Korea lost the opportunity to venture out to the ocean. The turtle ship is both a source of pride for Korea and a testament to its unfortunate history.


should he know? you realize civilization uses randomly generated maps so korea can spawn where ever right

 

[HANDANI]

And you don't know anything about Korean history or the Geobukseon. As a Korean, I'll be more accurate in my approach. Korea's deep seas are shallow, so ships have flat bottoms, allowing for frequent ship transitions. Therefore, Korea didn't venture out to the ocean at that time. On the other hand, Japan, with its Pacific Ocean, built narrow-bottomed ships like carracks to cross the ocean. This is how the great admiral Yi Sun-sin was able to achieve such a remarkable victory over Japan in the Korean-Japanese War. Instead, Korea lost the opportunity to venture out to the ocean. The turtle ship is both a source of pride for Korea and a testament to its unfortunate history.


should he know? you realize civilization uses randomly generated maps so korea can spawn where ever right

I hope you can calm down and have a calm conversation. You don't have to speak so forcefully. Furthermore, you're not the only Korean here. CAYM, too. If there's something wrong or something's been missed, wouldn't it be enough to simply ask for corrections with supporting evidence? Wouldn't that be sufficient and allow for a healthy conversation?

 

[Lumpyacidfish]

I hope you can calm down and have a calm conversation. You don't have to speak so forcefully. Furthermore, you're not the only Korean here. CAYM, too. If there's something wrong or something's been missed, wouldn't it be enough to simply ask for corrections with supporting evidence? Wouldn't that be sufficient and allow for a healthy conversation?

bro I just copy and pasted what he said
im not korean

 

[trinket]

Currently experiencing some conflict with this and the Subterfuge mod. Rigging and spy points work but I can't select any spy actions from the latter, both domestic and international ones.

 

[hokath]

@trinket sounds off. Naturally I play with both, and haven't seen this. Could you DM me your database and lua logs?

@The rest of you. You can't fight here. This is the war room.

 

[trinket]

@trinket sounds off. Naturally I play with both, and haven't seen this. Could you DM me your database and lua logs?

nevermind my bad
turns out I was using the old CAYM version

 

[HANDANI]

bro I just copy and pasted what he said
im not korean

Oh, I'm sorry. I apologize. I didn't realize it was a quote because there were no quotation marks. My mistake.

 

[Lumpyacidfish]

Oh, I'm sorry. I apologize. I didn't realize it was a quote because there were no quotation marks. My mistake.

ill put quotation marks next time

 

[hokath]

I noticed Spanish Armada strength changes are currently hardcoded in the 4UC .lua file responsible, so they will have too-high CS at the moment.
Should auto-fix itself with 5.0 but be warned -- right now you have to fix this yourself.

 

[Zarrk]

Truly Invincible indeed 48 combat strength instead of 30.

Also why by Poseidon does Galleons (and UU variants) are upgrading into Torpedo Boats (with the adequate mod) a completly different combatclass with zero shared promotions ? Heck the pedia even show a ruin upgrade would result in a Cruiser even bypassing Frigate. (Don't ask about underwater riuns there are other naval units with a set upgrade by ruins path.)

 

[hokath]

Same style of 1 range and move after attacking.
In a future update I planned to redo the "light naval" upgrade line and unit class to make it all consistent.
Have been waiting because a lot of people are making naval mods atm.

 

[hokath]

Going to drop an update later today -- just need to run some more tests -- that will aim to reduce the tech cost curve.
I've found that tech costs seem to be too high relative to output, especially in the atomic+ eras it seems.
Not crazy but it doesn't feel as punchy as I want it to be.
Before the costs were just extrapolated based on the VP formula, which means they get about 30% bigger overall.
I'm going to bring it down closer to 10% (12 atm), to join the late-game curve VP already has.

Spoiler :

 

[CAYM]

This is a music-related tech, but musicians are in other tech fields. Wouldn't it be better to move?

 

[hokath]

It's ok to have it there

Romantic music - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

But Acoustics is a bit weak atm I feel, so the move is a good one.
I looked a bit more into the spacing of these GWAM yields and they are a bit inconsistent. Will take a close look.

 

[CAYM]

The Uhlans aren't a unique unit that existed only in that region throughout human history.

At that time, even in Asia, the Qing Dynasty (now China) was able to rapidly win battles across China and Asia.

After extensive discussions with GPT and historical research, I've concluded that the Cossacks should not be the flagship model of the Uhlans, but rather an enhanced version of the Dragoons, with a name that emphasizes universality. According to the Pedigree description, it's a special unit that should simply be given to Poland.

If you really want to make this a representative unit, bring the Polish Hussars here.

So I propose a renaming.

Heavy Lancers (Shock Cavalry)
Armored cavalry equipped with a cuirass and helmet (sometimes horse barding) and a 3–4 m couched lance. Formed in close-order squadrons to deliver decisive shock charges on open ground, break lines, exploit flanks, and pursue. In melee they fought with sabres and pistols/carbines. Fielded as elite/guard heavy cavalry across Europe and Eurasia in the 17th–19th centuries; dominant in charges but vulnerable to rough terrain, obstacles, and steady infantry with disciplined fire or square formations.

 

[Penkover]

Hi guys again,
after discussion with Hokath I have separated my personal changes into a standalone mod, to be used TOGETHER with this Hokath´s mod.
Take a look at it HERE (or search for: Penkover´s units overhaul for Hokath´s Enlightenment Era for VP).
I hope it is public visible (editing the desc. made the text "awaiting admin approval" reapper)

 

[hokath]

Sorry CAYM, I have a tough time reading your English.
I want to be sure I understand.
You think the Uhlan is not sufficiently general of a name because it only exists in Europe -- is it? And you think instead "Heavy Lancer"?
What do you mean "flagship model"? (Cossack is now at Dragoon as you suggested previously)
Are you saying Winged Hussar should be Uhlan (Industrial) replacement? Surely not?

 

[CAYM]

Sorry CAYM, I have a tough time reading your English.
I want to be sure I understand.
You think the Uhlan is not sufficiently general of a name because it only exists in Europe -- is it? And you think instead "Heavy Lancer"?
What do you mean "flagship model"? (Cossack is now at Dragoon as you suggested previously)
Are you saying Winged Hussar should be Uhlan (Industrial) replacement? Surely not?

I’d like to start by apologizing—when I made my earlier comment, I wasn’t aware that the text for the Enlightenment Era had already been updated. I had been using a personally modified version for some time and didn’t realize the recent changes had been implemented.

The main point I wanted to raise is about the term “Uhlan.” While historically accurate, it refers to a specific type of light cavalry originating from Eastern Europe, particularly in regions like Poland, Lithuania, and the Austro-Hungarian Empire. As such, I believe it’s a regionally narrow term that may not be suitable as a generic unit name for a civilization-wide unit available to all.

If you do wish to keep “Uhlan” as a name, I’d suggest perhaps replacing the Polish Hussar with the Uhlan as a civilization-specific unique unit—that would feel more historically and thematically appropriate.

Moreover, during this same era in East Asia, the Qing dynasty fielded spear cavalry, which were quite similar in terms of both time period and combat style. The Qing were expanding across much of modern-day China at this time, making their cavalry forces historically significant as well.

So here’s my proposal:

• “Uhlan” is too geographically specific to serve as a generic unit name.
• A more suitable name for a generic cavalry unit of this era would be something like “Heavy Lancer” or “Lancer”, which conveys the right combat role in a more general way.
• If you’d like to retain the flavor of the Uhlan, it would be better suited as a unique unit for a specific civ rather than a default replacement for all.

It’s a small point, but I hope this perspective helps with refining the naming approach while maintaining both historical consistency and broader applicability.