1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

Environmental: No Cheat (and no autolog)?

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Demo Game: Polls' started by Blkbird, Dec 29, 2005.

?

Shall we activate No Cheat (and implicitly disable the autolog mod as a result)?

Poll closed Dec 31, 2005.
  1. Yes

    40.0%
  2. No

    48.0%
  3. Abstain

    12.0%
  1. Blkbird

    Blkbird Chieftain

    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2005
    Messages:
    860
    This is a re-run for an existing poll (see here) regarding the No Cheat option, which is in conflict with the popular autolog mod.

    The original poll has failed to present options "worded in neutral fashion" as required by custom and the Code of Laws currently being ratified. Therefore this rerun.
     
  2. DaveShack

    DaveShack Inventor Retired Moderator

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2003
    Messages:
    13,108
    Location:
    Arizona, USA (it's a dry heat)
    People have had the ability to cheat in every Civ3 demogame. Some do, and we need the moderators help to clean up. Most don't even though there a plethora of tools like PowerBar, savegame editors, and anyone can write code to find out anything they want given time and a little ingenuity.

    The in-game no-cheat mode plugs a couple of serious holes. The most important one is that you can't launch worldbuilder from the middle of a game to find out what's going on, add or subtract things, change the landscape, etc. It also keeps you from having a modded advisor panel which shows all enemy military, or details of enemy cities, or other things which are easily possible in the Python code.

    Unfortunately no-cheat won't eliminate the easiest and most prevalent forms of cheating. If someone really wants to affect the DG, he/she can just get elected DP, play offline, and then start manipulating the RNG by reloading after losses and reordering battles, the same as in Civ3. Another way to make a big difference is to load up the initial save and start playing ahead. Don't be stupid and get all-seeing all-powerful foreknowledge, just learn enough that your opinions are always right, and see how easy it is to get elected the next term.

    We can't avoid even the most basic of cheats using the no-cheat option. What then does it boil down to? We have the option to allow an incredibly useful ability to log everything which goes on, potentially down to the level of recording exact unit movements which would let us replay turns with total confidence if the DP encounters a crash to desktop at the end of a long turn. We can allow use of future developments from the Python mod community, as long as we trust our citizens to not load mods which reveal the wrong information.

    There is the "know your rules" mod to the sid's tips file -- that would be disallowed with no-cheat. What else might we be able to do for roleplay?

    We already have to trust the citizens to not play ahead, and we have to trust the DPs to not reload to change game outcomes. Let's trust ourselves to use tools which don't result in cheating, and trust ourselves to avoid things which do promote it.
     
  3. Sigma

    Sigma Censor

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2005
    Messages:
    521
    Location:
    Rice University
    Whoops, I accidentally voted Yes. I'd like my vote to be changed to No, if it affects the results at all.
     
  4. Chieftess

    Chieftess Moderator Retired Moderator

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2002
    Messages:
    24,160
    Location:
    Baltimore
    So you'd just allow them to load up worldbuilder and stick a resource in, or repair a terrain affected by global warming? That's like telling the GOTM that, "Since people will reload an alternate save, there's no sense trying to forbid people to cheat". I've said earlier that this feature will be turned on.
     
  5. Rik Meleet

    Rik Meleet Top predator Retired Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2003
    Messages:
    11,977
    Location:
    Nijmegen Netherlands
    Why is this even polled?
    It has to be "Yes" for the simple reason that a moderator action is always worse than if there won't be a moderator action neccessary.

    If I get my way; this feature will be switched on. Limit (accidental) cheating by as much as possible.
     
  6. Chieftess

    Chieftess Moderator Retired Moderator

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2002
    Messages:
    24,160
    Location:
    Baltimore
    And we know how much you guys hate moderator actions. ;) So don't tempt us.
     
  7. Dianthus

    Dianthus Small but hardy

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2003
    Messages:
    5,814
    Location:
    Woking, UK
    For the HOF we're looking at making a HOF mod that includes autolog that works with the "No Cheating" setting turned on. Not sure if anyone here will be interested in that... Of course, with no cheating turned on everyone has to use exactly the same mod to be able to load the game...
     
  8. Alphawolf

    Alphawolf Basileus, Founding Father

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2005
    Messages:
    873
    Location:
    Nashville, Tennessee
    Because No Cheat Mode eliminates the ability for an autolog as the game currently stands and many potential DP have computers that take an obscene amount of time to alt-tab out.

    I'll PM you regarding this.

    -the Wolf
     
  9. Chieftess

    Chieftess Moderator Retired Moderator

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2002
    Messages:
    24,160
    Location:
    Baltimore
    Then use windowed mode. CTRL-tab also shows a log of the game, too.
     
  10. Ginger_Ale

    Ginger_Ale Lurker Retired Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2004
    Messages:
    8,802
    Location:
    Red Sox Nation
    I think with every demogame there is a certain amount of trust involved. I could ask you regarding the Civ3 one:

    You'd just allow them to load up Civ3MultiTool and stick a resource in, or repair a terrain affected by global warming?

    Did that cause any harm to us? There will ALWAYS be ways to cheat, as DaveShack said. Even simply playing out the game like soemone did in DG4 or DG5 is a major cheat ability, and this "No Cheat" won't stop it.

    BTW: People can always overwrite their main files with some edited files to cheat. How are you going to stop that?

    -------
    And oh yeah, Blkbird, there wasn't a need for a poll again. We already had one going. No need to make people vote twice. I'm sure those other poll options weren't killing you.
     
  11. Black_Hole

    Black_Hole Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2004
    Messages:
    3,424
    Welcome to our democracy...
    Ill just chalk another one up on the moderators override tally...
     
  12. DaveShack

    DaveShack Inventor Retired Moderator

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2003
    Messages:
    13,108
    Location:
    Arizona, USA (it's a dry heat)
    PM sent. xcl
     
  13. Black_Hole

    Black_Hole Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2004
    Messages:
    3,424
    I don't hate moderator actions, I just hate when they are used to override a majority of the people, which isn't a democracy. I thought moderator actions were for enforcing forum rules, I can't find a single forum rule that would force us to play the DG with a certain option selected. This is the fourth time, moderators have wanted to override the citizens.
     
  14. Donovan Zoi

    Donovan Zoi The Return

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2002
    Messages:
    4,960
    Location:
    Chicago
    No need to be party of the belligerent majority, GA. Blkbird had every right right to recall the results of DaveShack's cavalier poll. Notice that the results are slightly different, though so far not successful, this time out? Some of our citizens were swindled by the silver tongue.

    The polling options weren't "killing" us, but it is certainly not the conduct I expect from the first Chief Justice of this game (it appears). Is this the type of objectivity we can expect for the first term?
     
  15. DaveShack

    DaveShack Inventor Retired Moderator

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2003
    Messages:
    13,108
    Location:
    Arizona, USA (it's a dry heat)
    Actually, you will see from my comments in the other poll that I support the outcome of this one.

    Vote your beliefs.

    BTW, here is some example autolog output. If we decide to use it, I'm committed to extending it to add any information the citizens want to see, within reason (I can't spend a whole month on the upgraded code) and which doesn't provide info we shouldn't be able to see. Though this example doesn't have any user-entered comments, one can press alt-e and type in anything you want.

    Turn 266 (1180 AD)

    Turn 267 (1185 AD)
    Tech learned: Metal Casting

    Turn 268 (1190 AD)
    Research begun: Compass
    Research begun: Civil Service
    Tech learned: Civil Service
    Confucianism has spread: Osaka

    Turn 269 (1195 AD)
    Research begun: Compass

    Turn 270 (1200 AD)

    Turn 271 (1205 AD)
    Thebes begins: Swordsman
    Memphis grows: 8
    Pi-Ramesses grows: 6

    Turn 272 (1210 AD)
    Thebes finishes: Swordsman

    Turn 273 (1215 AD)
    Thebes begins: Market
    Alexandria grows: 5
    Confucianism has spread: Kyoto

    Turn 274 (1220 AD)
    Kyoto begins: Swordsman
    Tech learned: Compass
    Osaka's borders expand

    Some more with battle results
    Turn 293 (1315 AD)
    Pi-Ramesses begins: Catapult
    Swordsman promoted: City Raider I
    Swordsman defeats (6.00/6): English Archer
    Swordsman promoted: City Raider I
    Swordsman defeats (1.68/6): English Spearman
    Buddhism has spread: Warwick
    Confucianism has spread: Warwick
    Captured Warwick (Elizabeth)
    Tech learned: Optics
    Thebes finishes: Catapult
    Swordsman loses to: English Horse Archer (3.48/6)
    Buddhism has spread: Warwick
    Confucianism has spread: Warwick
    Warwick lost
     
  16. Rik Meleet

    Rik Meleet Top predator Retired Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2003
    Messages:
    11,977
    Location:
    Nijmegen Netherlands
    Chieftess and I won't force this setting on you.
     
  17. DaveShack

    DaveShack Inventor Retired Moderator

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2003
    Messages:
    13,108
    Location:
    Arizona, USA (it's a dry heat)
    Thanks, that means a lot to quite a few of us! :goodjob:

    I would like to clarify something too. I abhor cheating in all forms and will not hesitate to report it and help clean it up. The few incidents we have had in the past were handled swiftly and effectively.

    Hopefully a future patch will include equivalent logging function, and we can flip the no-cheat flag on in a save or start the next game with it on.
     
  18. Nobody

    Nobody Gangster

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2001
    Messages:
    5,448
    Location:
    Wellington New Zealand
    Breaking the Demogame rules is not a mod affair, there is no civfanatics forum rule about download saves and playing them. It is up to the Judically to enforce the Laws of the Demogame and Moderators to enforce the rules of civfanatics.
     
  19. ravensfire

    ravensfire Member of the Opposition

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2002
    Messages:
    5,281
    Location:
    Gateway to the West
    Thanks to you both for your trust in us, it's much appreciated.

    -- Ravensfire
     
  20. DaveShack

    DaveShack Inventor Retired Moderator

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2003
    Messages:
    13,108
    Location:
    Arizona, USA (it's a dry heat)
    Let's not have any more mod bashing please. They do a lot of things for us and it's mostly a thankless job. Think about how much work it would be to clean up if someone did start posting tons of spoiler information, or if this series of votes continued back and forth indefinitely. We can count ourselves lucky that the benefits of the autolog outweighed the negatives of potentially overturning the citizens' decision and the possible extra work if someone takes advantage of their generosity to actually cheat.

    I suggest this thread be closed now that the issue is decided.
     

Share This Page