Environmentalism?

[Honkoid]

When do you use environmentalism?

I almost never use it. I can imagine it might be useful to speed up industrialisation in your cities, but the huge health problems can be overcome by other means as well. Hospitals and Sid's Sushi are available with medicine as well. A bit further down the tech tree there are so many more health boosters, that this civic appears useful to me only for a short time. Maybe with anarchy free civic changes it is a bit more beneficial, but I usually find myself deciding between state property and free market boosting my production either by cheap companies (-25% upkeep with free market) or workshop spam (+10% prod + buffed workshops).

+2 gold on windmills and preserves look nice, but pale in comparison to the other civics and +25% maintenance to companies really sucks. How many forest preserves do you use anyway?

An extreme warmonger might use it to avoid building the health boosters, but on the other hand, with the other civics your production is higher anyway (assuming you get Mining Inc for free market), so why bother?

So again the question is, do you use it and why?

 

[brades]

Basically I use it if my cities have grown to the cap and I still have unhealthiness. One time with a great GP farm capital location, sid sushis, and environmentalism I was able to grow my capital to size 42. It would've gotten bigger too, but I had to late game war and by the time the game was over it was down to 36 from all the fighting.

 

[Jazzmail]

I never use it period.

The only use for the civic I can think of is to use the UN environment resolution as so to screw up the other civization's economies even more than it hurts you. This would be very situational at best.
Environmentilism is a downgrade from decentralization even.

 

[Xurr]

I never really use it because it really isn't all that great. The only time I can think of that I did use it was when a UN resolution passed for it.

 

[brades]

It is very useful if you are an SE addict and can afford it.

 

[Refar]

I use it when i fail on preventing some jerk to vote it up in the UN Most annoying when a leader who's favourite civic is Free Market does that...


Sometimes i will take it, if i lack on ressources really-really badly. Which not only means low health "base" but also makes the Corps less worthwhile (Not having the lots of the needed Ressources and nothing to trade...)

Otherwise... the +25% Corp Fees (Actually +50% - compared to Free Market) are just too heavy.

 

[Hammurbabble]

People who think Environmentalism sucks, I think, have read the description but haven't tried it. Once you get really big cities, it rocks all over the place. Despite losing the benefits from Free Market, the high maintenance cost, and the extra expense for corporations, my economy usually improves by going green, it doesn't take a hit.

I finally figured out why. It's because, when you have bad health, you lose some of your food production. To compensate for this, you (or your governors) put people to work on food tiles rather than commerce tiles or as specialists. You lose commerce income that way. Going green lets you get that money back.

When I have lots of big cities with green faces, I know it's time to make the switch.

 

[Honkoid]

Most of my cities I don't grow beyond 20 if they even reach it. So I don't have much trouble with green faces. Using a CE (what I mostly do at that point in the game) the advantage is not that great. I can imagine SEs to earn much more by environmentalism, but it's so much easier to use a CE once you've reached a certain point. I never really tried a lategame SE, so maybe that's the reason I see no use for environmentalism.

Do you use SE at the time environmentalism is available, Hammurbabble?

 

[Xurr]

People who think Environmentalism sucks, I think, have read the description but haven't tried it. Once you get really big cities, it rocks all over the place. Despite losing the benefits from Free Market, the high maintenance cost, and the extra expense for corporations, my economy usually improves by going green, it doesn't take a hit.

I finally figured out why. It's because, when you have bad health, you lose some of your food production. To compensate for this, you (or your governors) put people to work on food tiles rather than commerce tiles or as specialists. You lose commerce income that way. Going green lets you get that money back.

When I have lots of big cities with green faces, I know it's time to make the switch.

You can build enough buildings to take care of just about any health issues, especially on coastal cities. So environmentalism becomes unnecessary and redundant.

 

[Hammurbabble]

You can build enough buildings to take care of just about any health issues, especially on coastal cities. So environmentalism becomes unnecessary and redundant.

And what about cities that aren't on the coast? Most of mine aren't. (Anyway the only building you can put in a coastal city that isn't inland that affects health is the harbor, which gives you a max of +3.)

I find in my play experience that what you say isn't true. Maybe it would be true if I kept my cities smaller, but then I'd lose the benefits of having the big cities. Once I get at least 2 cities of population 25+, I know it's time to go green. Every civic has its place. Environmentalism is for when you have very large cities.

 

[Mat777]

I use it all the time because my city all need it. It make my city grow so much at the end. This is good for score at late game.

And sometimes, it's not even enough, I need to construct hospital too...

 

[Cowabunga]

Most of my cities I don't grow beyond 20 if they even reach it. So I don't have much trouble with green faces. Using a CE (what I mostly do at that point in the game) the advantage is not that great. I can imagine SEs to earn much more by environmentalism, but it's so much easier to use a CE once you've reached a certain point. I never really tried a lategame SE, so maybe that's the reason I see no use for environmentalism.

Do you use SE at the time environmentalism is available, Hammurbabble?

Neither CE nor SE are on the War Academy's Acronymn listing. Could you please explain what those acronymns mean?

Very respectfully,

Kowabunga

 

[Hammurbabble]

CE = cottage economy
SE = specialist economy

A cottage economy is one in which your main research, gold, and espionage all comes from commerce, largely generated by cottages. A specialist economy is one in which all this comes mainly from specialists. An SE does rely on larger cities, because you maintain lots of specialists.

I use a hybrid economy, to answer the question. I have two, sometimes three, cities that are devoted to specialists, at least in part. One of these generates scientists, the other merchants. In theory, I'd like to have a third for spies, and have one of my main production cities generate engineers. All the rest of my cities have a mix of farms, cottages, and production tiles.

It's usually only four or five of my cities that run into health problems without Environmentalism, but they're my most important cities.

If you're not having health problems without Environmentalism, then obviously you don't need it yet. I only switch when I do run into those problems. Until then, I stay with Free Market.

 

[mystyfly]

If you use a CE envorinmentalism is pretty useless as you can easily get the needed health from ressources and buildings. Sushi isn't really great in a CE, as you generally get 'too' much food (that goes somewhat waste). If you have 1 or even 2 GP-farms, then I really ask you if you think it is worth sacrificing those civics that give bonuses to all the cities for just 3-5 food in 1 or 2 of your cities. Usually a GP-farm's growth is capped by happiness not food. And if you have a city that already generated 10-15 GPs (as we're talking about the late-game), 1-2 specialists more or less aren't making a big difference.

In a SE it is very different. Especially with Sushi. It could help you a bit, but also in a fourth or a third of your cities. Last time I used a SE, My cap had about 3-4 farms unworked in the late game, because it simply couldn't grow due to happy cap. I had my culture slider at 40% btw (for happy of course). Since I was in Caste System I had 10 angry faces from that. So post-emancipation it still is happiness that limits your cities. This makes Environmentalism pretty much useless.

If you get your production via SP, then the +1 food the workshop and the watermill provide may even out the unhealthiness your cities have from the industrialisation.

However I could think of a use: OCC w/o National Park. Not building the Nat Park is ok since it removes coal and with that the +50% prod from IW. There Environmentalism could be useful.

 

[Hammurbabble]

Last time I used a SE, My cap had about 3-4 farms unworked in the late game, because it simply couldn't grow due to happy cap. I had my culture slider at 40% btw (for happy of course). Since I was in Caste System I had 10 angry faces from that. So post-emancipation it still is happiness that limits your cities. This makes Environmentalism pretty much useless.

Your mistake there was running Caste System that late in the game. This is one reason I don't run a pure SE. Specializing one city in scientists, for example, I can run 7 specialists with a library, an observatory, a lab, and Oxford. In my merchant city, I can run 7 specialists with a market, a grocer, and Wall Street. Those are the really important ones. In most other cities, I'll maybe run two to four specialists max, depending on available food.

By that late in the game, between conquests and trade, I have enough happy resources coming in that happiness really isn't a problem unless I'm at war, and that's what Police State is for. So I have exactly the opposite experience: health rather than happiness becomes the limiting factor.

 

[mystyfly]

?????

I don't remember exactly but my cap had much rather 14 than 7 specialists. Whats growth good for if you can't have enought specialists?? 7 specs under rep are only 42 base beakers. With modifiers, it produced ~850 beakers per turn (slider @0% and oxford). Waiting for labs for scientists slots is way too late. and observatories aren't that much of a priority.

Having 2-4 specialists per city is way to few without cottages to tech at a decent pace.

 

[PutCashIn]

I find environmentalism is useful if your playing Global Highlands, where I often have more windmills than cottages, in fact, Ive had 2 filler citys that I can remember that were surrounded by grass hills only, which is 40 extra base commerce under enviro.

 

[Hammurbabble]

Having 2-4 specialists per city is way to few without cottages to tech at a decent pace.

Yes, I understand that; that's why I don't use a pure SE. For me Caste System isn't a way to have insane numbers of specialists but a way to have a decent number when I can't build the buildings to support them yet. By "decent" I mean, in mid-game, maybe 4-5 in a city (populations are lower then of course).

I know that's not enough if you're running a pure SE, but I never do.

As for what growth is good for -- there are still tiles to be worked. 7 specialists means a pop of 27. That's pretty big, actually. And there are other issues besides growth. The way bad health works is it subtracts from your food income. For each lost food, you have to work a food tile in preference to a production or commerce tile (or a specialist). That's why I seem to see Environmentalism helping instead of hurting my economy.

BTW, Mistyfly you may know this, is there any way to turn off the auto-management of specialists in a city? It gets really annoying when I go back into a city after something has happened, like a spate of war-weariness, and find they've moved my scientists into spies or something.

 

[mystyfly]

As for what growth is good for -- there are still tiles to be worked. 7 specialists means a pop of 27. That's pretty big, actually. And there are other issues besides growth. The way bad health works is it subtracts from your food income. For each lost food, you have to work a food tile in preference to a production or commerce tile (or a specialist). That's why I seem to see Environmentalism helping instead of hurting my economy.

I usually settle near food ressources (esp in the early game). And a city with two seafood, grain or livestock, flood plains (any combination of these I mean) can get 7 specialists easily. Another way is Sushi.
I just wanted to make a point about Caste System. I think it was wrong you said it was a mistake I used it in the lategame. Caste System is more important than Rep to a SE imo, as GP are the great boost to the SE.

There is one button near "emphasize X" in the city screen and probabely in the options menu (ctrl + o) to turn it off. I don't know about the options, I haven't touched them since I installed the game. Of course it is annoying. But SE means more MM. This is just how it is

 

[Hammurbabble]

I just wanted to make a point about Caste System. I think it was wrong you said it was a mistake I used it in the lategame. Caste System is more important than Rep to a SE imo, as GP are the great boost to the SE.

You are right, and if your goal is to maximize the number of same-type specialists in a city, then Caste System is necessary. It's of course possible to have 14 or more specialists in one city without it, but they couldn't all be the same kind.