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Epsilon - Friend or Foe

Discussion in 'Team Innovia' started by dutchfire, Jan 6, 2007.

  1. dutchfire

    dutchfire Deity

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    And the message I sent along with the save.
    They are pretty much ahead of us.
     
  2. Theoden

    Theoden Deity GOTM Staff

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    I see they have a well developed foreign ministry... I'll respond to them later tonight. I guess we will start out friendly to get whatever info?
     
  3. dutchfire

    dutchfire Deity

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    Yeah, we can't hurt them now anyway, so stay nice as long as possible, until we're ready (together with Aloha and Piffle) to destroy them totally. With the lead they've got already, all we can do is try to destroy them together.
    I suggest we make a non-aggresion deal with them for the moment though. Try to get as much out of them as possible.
     
  4. Theoden

    Theoden Deity GOTM Staff

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    The message I sent Epsilon:
    Spoiler :


    And they've now responded:
    Seems like they are running a tech broker agency. :p

    Their offer sounds reasonable, but we'd have to lower the science rate to do it so I'm not sure if it's worth it.

    If we are going to take it, could someone calculate which deal is best for us taking into account the extra commerce we'll get by acquiring currency earlier?
     
  5. 1889

    1889 Mayor of H-Marker Lake

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    Those are good prices but we simply can not do it. If we buy technology from them we will never catch up. The only way to close the gap is to trade with the other teams.
     
  6. DaveShack

    DaveShack Inventor Retired Moderator

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    I agree, paying cash for techs is not a good idea, especially GPT terms.
     
  7. dutchfire

    dutchfire Deity

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    Perhaps we could work something out with the other teams, Aloha and Piffle and perhaps even Loco.
    280 bucks/4=70 gold, still a lot.
    Certainly counting the library bonus and the discount because they know it, that makes about 30% too I guess.
     
  8. Theoden

    Theoden Deity GOTM Staff

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    Chat with General W (Epsilon):
    Spoiler :
    Opgiv aldrig din adgangskode eller dit kreditkortnummer i en samtale via onlinemeddelelser.

    Mikkel siger:
    Hi Josh/General W, do you have time to talk?
    Josh siger:
    yeah - I am... on the phone though - can you give me 5?
    Mikkel siger:
    sure
    Josh siger:
    ok - Goodevening to you!
    Mikkel siger:
    good afternoon to you
    Josh siger:
    I hope you're feeling better today?
    Mikkel siger:
    yes, I felt better during the day and a few headache pills did the job
    Josh siger:
    lol - glad to hear it
    Josh siger:
    so - what's the update from the land of Innovia?
    Mikkel siger:
    well, we happened to have layn a few bricks which were supposed to be a big library but we got a hnadul of coins instead
    Josh siger:
    lol - oh man!
    Josh siger:
    I hope you weren't too far along?
    Mikkel siger:
    not at all, your industrious trait really took the lead there
    Josh siger:
    yeah - certainly helps
    Mikkel siger:
    I guess you are planning a mass wonder strategy?
    Josh siger:
    lol - well, we've found that in general the wonders in Civ4 aren't as exciting as in Civ3.
    Josh siger:
    but certainly can help. obviously
    Mikkel siger:
    well, thats right theres nothing like civ3's leo's or pyramids
    Josh siger:
    exactly
    Josh siger:
    so - we've noticed that you've really become the kings of trading!
    Mikkel siger:
    yeah, I think we were the first to aplhabet
    Mikkel siger:
    and our name implies that we are fond of techs
    Josh siger:
    - indeed! ... after this last turn, I think the only technology we're up on you is Currency now.
    Josh siger:
    Are you still interested in that, or you working another angle?
    Mikkel siger:
    you tech lead was prety big actually
    Josh siger:
    (yeah - Oracle helped with that... but all things are temporary... obviously!)
    Mikkel siger:
    there didn't seem to be anywhere near a majority positive towards it so probably not
    Josh siger:
    Any sense of why not?
    Mikkel siger:
    we'd rather crack up the science rate than spend gold to buy techs
    Mikkel siger:
    i think that was the reason
    Josh siger:
    hmmm. ok. I know you're not the whole team... but if the gold price is low enough, it's more cost effective than researching it yourself, yes?
    Mikkel siger:
    speaking for myself... yes, if the gold discount outweighs the fact that we have more science multiplier buildings then it would be more cost effective for us
    Josh siger:
    We're willing to haggle on the price of Currency, if you think that would help... you can't possibly have science multiplers above 30-40% can you?
    Mikkel siger:
    however there's also the general rule of not funding the leaders (no pun intended) research more than neccesary no matter how friendly they are
    Josh siger:
    lol - fair enough
    Mikkel siger:
    But of course if the price is low enough they might be convinced
    Josh siger:
    (on phone again...)
    Mikkel siger:
    are you still alive?
    Josh siger:
    hey -
    Josh siger:
    sorry - I got off the phone and you were gone
    Mikkel siger:
    that's just my crappy internet connection in function
    Mikkel siger:
    it logs me off once in a while
    Josh siger:
    ah - I see. no worries
    Josh siger:
    I was just asking you ... what kind of low price are we talking about here?

    Mikkel siger:
    probably something like 40% of the price with payments coming over five turns... but I don't expect you to accept that
    Josh siger:
    well...
    Josh siger:
    that's not completly undoable.
    Josh siger:
    concern on our end would be that we sell it so cheap, then you turn around to your trading partners and make a mint.
    Josh siger:
    (pun intented )
    Mikkel siger:
    that's certainly a valid concern
    Mikkel siger:
    but I think we'd be willing to agree to a trading restriction
    Mikkel siger:
    so that we wont sell it on
    Josh siger:
    ok - then it's possible we could have a deal
    Josh siger:
    40% of beaker price... how long do you think your team would go for a trading moratorium on Currency?
    Mikkel siger:
    moratorium? (whats that)
    Josh siger:
    ah... a restriction. (too fancy for my own good)
    Josh siger:
    ie - you won't trade or sell Currency to anyone else for X number of turns
    Mikkel siger:
    pretty long I guess... 40 turns?
    Josh siger:
    yeah - that would totally do it. Think your team would agree to that?
    Mikkel siger:
    certainly not everyone but I think there might be a majority, at least I would take it if I was in total charge
    Josh siger:
    ok - I've been runing the Foriegn Ministry a bit like a dictator lately... ... but baring some last minute democracy... I can mostly assure you our team would agree to that deal
    Mikkel siger:
    nah, I'm more like the UN vs the world when it comes to actual influence
    Josh siger:
    LOL - you're in bad shape then
    Josh siger:
    would you like a formal letter proposing this deal?
    Mikkel siger:
    no, it's just called democracy
    Mikkel siger:
    well, I can propose it to the team and if they agree we'll make the formal agreement
    Josh siger:
    ok. Sounds good to me.
    Josh siger:
    40% of Currency would be just 160 gold
    Josh siger:
    LOL - ouch
    Mikkel siger:
    but you don't lose anything
    Mikkel siger:
    and if you sell it everyone for that price you've earned 160% of its cost
    Josh siger:
    but if you're not going to be trading it elsewhere, I still think our team would go for it - just to keep trading with our Friends
    Mikkel siger:
    yeah, when you're #1 in score making friends is very important I reckon
    Josh siger:
    yeah - we're willing to make some crazy deals if it (hopefully) buys us some good will
    Josh siger:
    you WILL love us after this, yes?
    Josh siger:

    Mikkel siger:
    personally I will
    Josh siger:
    lol - I'll take that
    Mikkel siger:
    but I could put it up for a team vote...
    Mikkel siger:

    Mikkel siger:
    1:love 'em 2: hate 'em 3: abstain
    Josh siger:
    lol ...er... I'm not totally sure I'd want to see the outcome of that vote!
    Josh siger:
    how about you just get them to agree to steal our lunch money on currency, and we'll just assume it's because you love us?
    Mikkel siger:
    that's the best arrangement for everybody I think
    Josh siger:
    ok. I think we could have a deal here. Just let me know. We can transfer currency as soon as we have an agreed deal.
    Mikkel siger:
    I will propose it as soon as we're finished talking
    Josh siger:
    great. I'll post this chat in our forum so people will start getting ready to yell at me if necessary
    Josh siger:
    It's been a pleasure talking - thanks for saying hi. Hope I didn't keep you up too late.
    Mikkel siger:
    it's 1am but it's saturday tomorrow so no problem. and a pleasure to talk you
    Josh siger:
    IM me anytime. or PM works fine also. Hope you sleep well, and we'll talk more soon!
    Mikkel siger:
    thank you. and have a good workday (whatever is left of it, and if you are actually working)
    Josh siger:
    (Home sick... so it was a good time for me - you broke the boredom)
    Mikkel siger:
    thatso you're also sick? lol. but I'm glad I broke your boredom


    In short, I've managed to get a very good offer of buying currency that I think we should accept:
    We pay 40% of the price (160g) over 5 turns (we can afford that right?)
    We won't trade it to any third part within 40 turns

    I know the money will help Epsilon a bit but this offer is just too good...
     
  9. 1889

    1889 Mayor of H-Marker Lake

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    I have not had time to read the chat yet, but not only do I not want to buy technology from Epsilon, the fact that we cant trade it to other teams for more techs significantly reduces its value.
     
  10. 1889

    1889 Mayor of H-Marker Lake

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    Ok, so now I've looked over the chat. Kudos to Theo, your really made for diplomacy, but I still oppose buying techs.

    My thinking is that we can do the research ourselves then trade with some other team and we've just doubled our effort, so a 50% discount might just compensates for the fact that we can't trade. But Currency is already 6% cheaper just because Epsilon already has it. So buying it at 40% amounts to about a 4% discount according to me.

    Concider also that most of our beakers are produced in Wheelville which gets +25% from the Library, the Monastary boosts beakers in Ploughland by 10% and our scientists also give us beakers. Our gold gets no bonuses though so it seems to me that gold is more valuable than beakers right now.

    I'd tell them that Innovians don't have to pay for it.
     
  11. Lord Parkin

    Lord Parkin aka emperor

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    I also don't like it. And 40 turns is a ridiculously long time, I would not go any longer than 20 (and even that's pushing it). Personally I'm not keen at all on funding the tech leader's research, it's the last thing a sensible strategist does. Also, consider that if they're willing to trade with us, then they'll be willing to trade with someone else. If they arrange a simultaneous trade-out of a tech to other parties, then they make a bundle at everyone else's expense.

    Finally, there's the fact that they are misleading by way of beaker costs. Almost every tech is NOT worth the amount of beakers it says, for the reason of multipliers. For each prerequisite (arrow leading to it) that you have satisfied, an additional 20% bonus to tech rate is applied to the tech you are researching. So for instance, in the case of Currency, as it has one prerequisite it does NOT take 400 beakers of research to complete; it takes 334 beakers. Techs with even more prerequisites are worth even less; for instance, Writing (with the prerequisites of Priesthood, Animal Husbandry, and Pottery all completed) will only require 62.5% of the beakers to research as it states as its 'cost'.

    I'm certain that Epsilon are aware of this, and are trying to bank in on other teams' possible lack of knowledge of it. Either way, I vote absolutely for one thing: we do not trade with Epsilon while they hold the tech lead, and especially not in gold-for-tech deals.

    EDIT: Good point about the additional multiplier for them already having it, 1889... I'd forgotten about that as well. Realistically, Currency will take us about 300 beakers to research ourselves, maybe less. Epsilon's deals are nowhere near as sweet as they are sugar-coating them to sound like.
     
  12. Theoden

    Theoden Deity GOTM Staff

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    Good reasoning there. I was aware of the research bonuses but I didn't know they were that high.

    I don't think General_W knew it either though, so telling him might convince him of an even lower price. Theoretically what would we settle for? Something like paying 20% of the 'cost' and not being able to trade it for the next 10 turns? Or perhaps even lower; I'd just like to make a counteroffer to keep relations open so we're able to get information from them.
     
  13. 1889

    1889 Mayor of H-Marker Lake

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    They may be offended if our conter-offer is too good, but if we make a reasonable counter-offer that they accept then it would be hard for us to turn it down. How about you just tell them that your sorry but your team mates were too thick and refused to listen to reason. Its like good cop bad cop and I think it will come in very handy.
     
  14. Theoden

    Theoden Deity GOTM Staff

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    I'll try that, playing the good foreign minister who is constantly overruled by his teammates. :p I think it'll work since I already presented myself to him as not having the power to do trades without the peoples consent.
     
  15. 1889

    1889 Mayor of H-Marker Lake

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    This was in our box when I went to get the save. Still considering what to do with Feudalism, but probably not this.

     
  16. Theoden

    Theoden Deity GOTM Staff

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    I don't think the deal is that bad. We would be able to sell philosophy to Aloha for Theology and Drama afterwards. Off course we'd have to clear that with aloha first...
     
  17. dutchfire

    dutchfire Deity

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    Option #1 sucks, Theology and Drama are both dead end techs.
    Option #2, Do we really need Philosophy? Pacifism isn't great, we don't have the production to get Angkor Wat and Taoism has been founded. All it does is lead to Nationalism, a very expensive tech that we won't be getting anyway.
     
  18. 1889

    1889 Mayor of H-Marker Lake

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    We can get those techs from Piffle also.

    Monotheism (171) and Feudalism (1001) for Philosophy (1144)

    Maybe Music (858) for Paper (858)

    Then maybe Philosophy to Aloha for Drama and Theology as you say.

    (This post is repeated in the Piffle thread)
     
  19. Nomad Bryce

    Nomad Bryce Innovian UU Cannon Turtle

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    Wow, this stuff is intense :p If my say counts for anything, I vote no to epsilon! In real life I am taking a very enlightening economics course and when it come to progress and benefit, trading with epsilon is a great idea. But since this is not about progress and is instead about relative competition, this trade is worse for us than we gain (I think, I have no numbers :p ) Maybe we should invest more in our long term economy with some fresh cottages!
     
  20. 1889

    1889 Mayor of H-Marker Lake

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    Sorry I didn't see your post earlier Dutch. Those are good points but I do want Theology when we build units for the war.
     

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