1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

Erebus in the Balance Update

Discussion in 'FfH2 Modmods, Scenarios, and Maps' started by Qgqqqqq, May 27, 2014.

  1. Qgqqqqq

    Qgqqqqq Chieftain

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2012
    Messages:
    1,073
    Latest Version:

    Erebus in the Balance: Version 12


    Download here.

    Note: This installer installs both the v12 file (named appropriately) and a "dummy" EitB file containing the content necessary to allow the other files to work. No renaming will be necessary, however, if this is your first time downloading, then make sure you don't select the "Erebus in the Balance" option as a mod, as it will not have the necessary files to download effectively. (Instead, you should select "Erebus in the Balance v12".)

    The changelog broken down by versions can be found here. I am currently working on a "true" Cumulative Changelog.

    Version 12 Changelog:

    Spoiler :
    Balance Changes:
    • Military State: Moves back to Military Strategy (from Warfare).
    • Conquest Civic: Moves back to Warfare (from Education).
    • Planar Gate: Cost reduced from 200->100h
    • Pallens Engine: Cost reduced from 180->120h
    • Alduria Chambers: Cost reduced from 180->120h
    • Reliquary gains a priest slot.
    • Wane requires level 5 (not 6)
    • Queen of the Line 9->16str
    • Airship divorced from Queen of the Line, Kuriotates can build both
    • Abashi gains the hero promotion
    • Drifa gains the hero promotion
    • Eurabatres gains the hero promotion
    - Reliquary cost changed from 60h->45h
    • Lairs:
    - Any military unit can explore Graveyards and Shipwrecks. (No Workboats!)
    - Only Level 2+ units can explore Barrows and Ruins. (2XP minimum)
    - Only Level 3+ units can explore Goblin Forts and Dungeons. (4/5XP minimum)
    - Only Level 4+ units can explore Unique Features. (8/10XP minimum)
    - Epic Lairs take 3 turns to explore, all other lairs take 1 turn to explore (exploration triggers at start of next turn
    • Naval Promotions:
    - Longshoreman now loses one combat (instead of one cargo)
    - Buccaneers now loses one cargo (instead of one move)
    - Skeleton Crew now loses one combat, gains two cargo
    • Sidar Palace gives +1g to priests
    • Warrens give +10% maintenance
    • Dragon’s Hoard gives +2cpt, +100% cpt, +10gpt, Gems, Gold, and Mithril (and Enchanted Blade)
    • Creative gains +100% speed Public Baths
    • Workshops receive +1h base, lose +1h at Guilds
    • Forts, citadels and castles act as cities (allowing them to be used for lakes and so on)
    • Pact of Nilhorn price reduced to 250h base (167h quick)
    • Caste System gains low upkeep, +1g per specialist, loses +1b per specialist.
    • Tolerant Trait gains March (temp fix)
    • Foreign Trade loses +1 trade route coastal; gains +50% trade-route yield.
    • Planar Gate Units are now Sheaim Unique Units
    • Monks gain Drill 1, Mobility 2, lose 2 base moves
    • Monks can now upgrade to all Priests
    • Favored promotion is now open to all unit classes (is not lost on upgrading)
    • Fix First Turn bug
    • Order units spawn with chance 100%
    • Windmills now require construction (instead of engineering)
    • Number of turns between revolts reduced to 8 (so two can be fit in Gold Age)
    • Triremes have +50% vs. Galleys
    • Elephants go to 60h (still unbuildable, but cost to upgrade to WE is reduced substantially)
    • Naval units gain +50% vs. Disciple units Cultists(Mod Notes: hard-coded in.)
    • Calabim can build Elder Council's if they have the Philisophical trait
    • Aristocracy gives -20% distance maintenance (from -40%)
    • Forts available at Masonry
    • New Improvement: Bannor Town. Means that Bannor now don’t lose economically from spawning Demagogs
    • Chance of Demagog spawning goes from 20%->100%; time to upgrade from Bannor Town to Town adjusted accordingly
    • Loyalty Spell now removes Burning Blood promotion, and vice versa
    • Added a disclaimer to the Human Hyborem/Basium options saying they don't work
    • Shadowriders are now Horse Rider replacements with +1 Poison Strength, Hidden Nationality, Causes Collateral Damage (max 30%), cost 180h
    • Nightwatch now have 3/2 Strength, 2 Poison Strength, require Archery (instead of Bowyers), and Guardsman/Marksman promotions (in addition to current stats
    • Extort spell now requires Shadow III

    Civilopedia Changes:
    • Summer Palace: Pedia Background and Strategy Entries updated/filled in.
    • Winter Palace: Pedia Background and Strategy Entries updated/filled in.
    • Form of the Titan: Pedia Background and Strategy Entries updated/filled in.
    • Boar Rider: Pedia Background and Strategy Entries updated/filled in.
    • Ljosalfar Palace: Pedia Background Entry updated/filled in.
    • Added new Bannor Town pedia entries
    • General Palace: Strategy entry created/filled.
    • Tax Office: Pedia Background and Strategy Entries updated/filled in.
    • Rivanna The Wraith Lord: Pedia Background Entry updated/filled in.
    • Dwarven Slinger: Pedia Background Entry updated/filled in.
    • Stonewarden: Pedia Background Entry updated/filled in.



    Please use this thread to report any bugs or issues you come across. I have implemented every change planned for this version, although once again ( :( ) I shied away from altering the dll to roll in the Adventurer Counter, Khazad Vault UI, Non-Core Game Events Option and Team Tower changes.

    Have fun! :)

    Current Known Issues:
    • The UI for the turn number is annoyingly set up so it displays twice at the top of the screen (and in some other places). This is annoying, but necessary to fix some of the bugs that cropped up in previous versions
    • The Khazad Vaults display a different number in the main screen


    The original post follows:

    Foreword:

    This was originally posted in the Erebus in the Balance Forum at Realms Beyond, and thus I assumed a decent level of knowledge about EitB in it. While this can be mostly copied over, a short background.

    Realms Beyond Forums is a place which is perhaps primarily recognized for its active Multiplayer community which runs well documented and competitive PBEM and Pitboss games based off Civilization 4. In 2010, Fall From Heaven touched RB for the first time, with an incredibly interesting and amusing game, FFHPBEM1. Largely because of this incredible start, a large portion of the MP community of RB took to FFH, and PBEMs took off left, right and centre.

    However, over time a level of dissatisfaction with the game grew. Whilst FFH remained the entrancing and beautiful game it always has, the in-depth analysis and immersion that competitive MP offers brought its flaws into sharp relief. Flaws like the dominance of Aristograrianism, the overbearing beaker costs of most T4 units and pre-eminence of Financial, to name but a few.

    This was brought to a head in 2011, when Sareln asked the board a simple question - what element of FFH would you cut?

    And from that simple question was born Erebus in the Balance. Where most mods of the game focus on new and interesting mechanics and features, Erebus in the Balance has always striven for balance and polish. Under Sareln's development, EitB grew, and so did the community, revamping the balance and increasing the strategic viability of many units and technologies.

    Version 9 is the most recent, but it was released in late 2012. What happened? Life, as it so often does, interrupted. Sareln simultaneously began working on his masters thesis and hit a dead end in coding for Version 10, and his interest in developing the mod waned. As the modding community dropped off, the playing community at RB dwindled as well.

    However it is still going strong, and talking to a number of players convinced me that interest remained in developing EitB further, with issues still clearly present in it. Thus, I started a thread at Realms Beyond to identify the problems people have with the balance of the mod as it stands and work for solutions.

    Whilst the design of this mod is obviously more focused towards the balance for MP purposes, I for one have a great love of the flavor and lore which makes FFH what it is, and every change made will attempt to remain in the spirit of the lore. Indeed, this is also an oppurtunity for anyone who wishes to flex their creative muscle, as I would love to see the 'Pedia updated once more. Here is a list of empty or broken entries if anyone wants a go (or knows the location of something from the fora or another mod which is already written and could fill it in).

    Whilst the main discussion and development will, of course, occur on the Realms Beyond Board, I am nonetheless interested in the feedback and opinions of those here. (And, of course, it would be awesome if we got some new blood interested in MP! :) ) So without further ado:



    Erebus in the Balance Update


    Erebus in the Balance is a major improvement over the original Fall from Heaven mod, and offers a significant improvement over the original in terms of balance and gameplay, and is more conducive to the multiplayer style we practice here. Unfortunately, the mod has been in hiatus for a significant amount of time, largely because of Sareln's real life circumstances. Thus I find it reasonable to work off the assumption that we will not see Erebus in the Balance v10 in, at the very least the near future. And while I think Erebus in the Balance is probably the best multiplayer version of FFH out there, there remain significant balance issues.


    For instance, Vollanna's overpoweredness had never come up as an issue before EitB23 and other more indepth issues have surfaced in recent times, such as the overall weakness of Sheaim as a civ, the remaining dominance of the Tower of Mastery as the easiest victory condition by far and the rising power of Basium, to name but a few. The strength and balance of the civilisations in a general sense needs work. Specifically, there are a number of civs that are notably below average in the mod, personally I consider the Sheaim, Khazad, Infernal, Grigori, Sidar and the Elohim amongst this number. This is probably the greatest weakness of the mod as it stands, although I don’t doubt there will be some controversy to this.


    From what I have established whilst chatting with fellow members, and seeing the banlists that come game after game, these issues are real and apparent, and the enthusiasm for FFH in our community does not seem to have reduced drastically, with a new PBEM every 2 months or so.


    I would like to see a greater effort on working on ironing out balancing issues within the mod as it stands, and to reestablish a ongoing evaluation of the balance of the mod, with discussions cropping up as issues are uncovered and exploited from game to game. A good model for this can be seen in the recent success of RBmod, with updates being released after (or just before) each game based off discussion emerging from the post-game discussions. I intend to preserve the vision of EitB as a mod for balance and limited change


    On my own place in the mod; while I have some skill at coding, I am by no means a coding expert, and am not confident that I will be able to handle the python and deeper alterations of the mod. Thus, a lot of the alterations we can see here will be those low-hanging fruit, especially of the XML which I am confident I can execute. Hopefully, if more is required then those with the skill to do so will be able to come forward, if not then I will look into simpler alternatives.


    For changes then, there is obviously one simple place to start - Sareln's current work on EitB v10. Below is his list of proposed and completed changes for EitB v10.

    Spoiler :


    If possible, I will look at incorporating most, if not all of his intended changes into this update, and have already contacted him as to this. Obviously, those options that served as a roadblock to v10 being released – most notably, the optional activation of BUG – will have to be put aside for now.


    Here are some specific areas that I feel need work:

    • The Esus religion continues to feel significantly weaker then others, and I don’t believe it has seen any use in a MP game.
    • The Summoner trait in general works out to be generally quite a bit worse than ARC for the arcane war route, while providing no economic advantages. I feel this is also a significant factor in the weakness of the Sheaim.



    Khazad:
    The issue currently is that their vault mechanic means that they start with a straight -1 happiness, and the trade-off of hoarding the necessary gold is not enough to compensate for this - most will choose to simply eat the nerf whilst behaving normally because of the economic cost of filling the vaults. The other advantages of the civ are decent, but have other trade-offs (no mages).

    My proposed solution is to do away with the first vault entirely, but fiddling with the other thresholds to normalize it. This means that the default is -1 happiness (which balances to normal with the free gold resource), leaving them at no disadvantage from the mechanic, but the possibility of getting an advantage.

    Thus instead of the current:

    Spoiler :
    Empty: <50 gold per city
    -1 happy
    Low: 50-99 gold per city
    -1 happy
    Normal: 100-149 gold per city
    No Effect
    Stocked: 150-199 gold per city
    +1 happy
    Abundant: 200-299 gold per city
    +10% hammers and +2 happy
    Full: 300-499 gold per city
    +25% hammers and +2 happy
    Overflowing: >499 per city
    +40% hammers, +3 happy, and +25% GPP


    We would have the following:

    Spoiler :
    Low: <50 gold per city
    -1 happy
    Normal: 50-99 gold per city
    No Effect
    Stocked: 100-199 gold per city
    +1
    Abundant: 200-299 gold per city
    +10% hammers and +2 happy
    Full: 300-499 gold gold per city
    +25% hammers and +2 happy
    Overflowing: >499 gold per city
    +40% hammers, +3 happy, and +25% GPP


    I have recently received another suggestion from Bobchillingworth and Ellimist on how to improve the Khazad:

    I think this is something we should consider along with losing the &#8220;Empty&#8221; vault if we don&#8217;t think it will be enough on its own.



    Varn Gosam:
    In the original FFH, Varn is SPI/CRE (ADA), which was changed to SPI/CHA (ADA) in EitB. Given the weakening of Adaptive leaders in general in the mod (the nerfing of Financial) and the fact that the strength of the Malakim in general largely lies in the power of their leader, I think that this change is unnecessary and should be reverted.

    Proposal: Varn Gosam traits changed from SPI/CHA (ADA) -> SPI/CRE (ADA)



    Summoner:
    I believe Mardoc summarized the problem with SUM best here:

    Simply put, Summoner is an inferior trait to Arcane for fielding a summoning army in most circumstances, and also has no economic boon, whereas at least ARC gives faster Mage Guilds.

    How to fix this?

    Unfortunately, I'm not sure how best to approach this. I could increase its military viability with a movement or combat boost to summons, or make summons hang around longer and so on. Or I could give it something economic, like +3bpt or +5% research. What does everyone think is the best approach here?



    Undercouncil and Overcouncil:
    As it currently stands, the Councils are available at Deception and Honour respectively. Unfortunately, this means that the Agnostic leaders, Auric Ulvin and Cassiel, can&#8217;t ever join, which is a big nerf with the much more improved Councils.

    Proposal: move both councils to Trade. Makes them appear a bit earlier in the game but worth it and not much of a change.



    Infernal:
    Infernal actually exists in two, almost completely different iterations, depending on how/why he is summoned. He can be summoned as a &#8220;Hyborem rush&#8221; where he is summoned by a fast teching civ, normally the Lanun, as fast as possible, with the intention to switch to Hyborem as soon as feasibly possible, to the detriment of even basic worker techs, and then just eating whoever you spawn next to with iron champions and Hyborem. See FFH5.

    Alternatively, he can appear much later in the game, when one of the players decides to go for the Pact and summons Hyborem in the process. In this scenario, Hyborem is normally so weak compared to the developed empires around him as to die swiftly at the whim of his neighbours. See FFH8.

    This exists because of the lack of granularity to Hyborems summoning, despite the wide variety of the period in which he can be summoned &#8211; Hyborem always appears with his Hero, two Champions, two longbowmen, three manes, two settlers, one worker and an imp. I intend to change this so that Hyborem gets extra units at the start depending on the average number of cities his opponents have at the time he is summoned.

    (Just based off a random check at a middling civ in a game when Hyborem wasn&#8217;t rushed gives us Illios who had 10 cities at roughly the time he was summoned in FFH14. This change seems, if anything, too small and certainly not overpowering.)

    Hyborem also has a problem in that it is almost impossible to grow his cities, and as a result, succeed economically, especially in multiplayer where humans do not throw away large stacks. I am looking into the possibility of allowing him to build manes for himself, but working out a balanced price is difficult. For now, I am going to increase the size of his cities on founding to Size 6, so that he won&#8217;t be stuck at low sizes for the rest of the game.

    Proposal: As well as his current starting units, Hyborem receives a number of axes, manes and settlers (sans promotions) equal to half the average number of cities minus two (the amount he starts with normally) in the game. Infernal cities now start out with 6 population, not 3.



    Fawns:
    One of the biggest issues with Vollanna and the Svartalfar in general is the power of fawns in the mod currently. For the same price as hunters, they lose the city malus, gain a big combat boost in forest and don&#8217;t require any buildings.

    Proposal: Increase the cost to 75h (from 60h).



    Sheaim:
    Currently the Sheaim suffer from significant issues. They have no particular mechanic to pursue that works well &#8211; their only option is Pyre Zombies, despite the obvious intention of focusing on the Arcane line. This is because their central feature, Planar gates are a flawed mechanic and almost always an inefficient way of getting units. This has been discussed to death, so I will not elaborate further, but suffice to say that the Gates are unreliable, inefficient and badly in need of buffing, especially as the units within are so interesting.

    My proposal is a slew of changes; firstly, the Planar Gates cost is reduced to 250h, doubled with Summoner. This is to make it cheaper, especially for the currently weaker Tebryn/Os Gabella. Secondly, all units that can spawn are now buildable, with the appropriate buildings and at a reasonable price. This is to make it so that the player has much more control over what units they build and can really get the benefit from them. Of especial note is the ability to build Mobius Witches, which are mages with some extra spells. This should make the Gates a genuine advantage as they can build their special units, especially the mass produced mages. Finally, the spawn rate is increased to a third of the AC and the limits on number of units per Planar Gate removed.

    Proposal: Planar gates are changed as follows:

    • Planar Gate Doubled by Summoner.
    • Planar Gate&#8217;s cost reduced from 300h -> 250h.
    • Planar Gate&#8217;s spawn rate increased to roughly a third of the AC (5% 0->9, 10% 10->29, 13% 30->39, 17% 40->49, 20% 50->59, 23% 60->69, 27% 70->79, 30% 80->89, 33% 90-99, 40% 100)
    • The following units are now buildable, at the bracketed costs and building: Revelers (Gambling House, 150h), Mobius Witch (Mage Guild, 150h), Chaos Marauder (Carnival, 50h), Manticore (Grove, 240h), Minotaur (Obsidian Gate, 240h), Tar Demon (Temple of Veil, 75h), Succubus (Public Baths, 150h)

    There is a possibility that this is overkill, however, I think it's worth trying.


    None of these changes have been implemented yet, although I have a pretty good idea how to do so. Any and all changes planned so far are up for discussion. If anyone has any other suggestions, especially on how to fix those issues that I don't have a plan for (such as Summoner, Esus, or any of the other weak civilizations), please tell!


    Current Changelog:
    Spoiler :
    Unit Change: Boost Mud Golem Cost: 50H -> 75H (Same base cost as Worker)
    Unit Change: Puppets gain SPECIALUNIT_SPELL which means they are in the same class as floating eye, fireball, and meteor and do not benefit from SUMM (Summoner Balsareph Exponentiation Problems)
    Bug: Match Grigori Tavern cost to the new Tavern cost
    Crash: Nox Noctis Crash
    Unit Change: Increase Fawn Cost: 60H -> 75H
    Trait Change: Varn Gosam trait change: SPI/CHM (ADA) -> SPI/CRE (ADA)
    Building Change: Planar Gate Cost Reduced: 300H -> 250H
    Building Change: Planar Gate Doubled by Summoner
    Unit Change: Chaos Marauder: Is buildable, Cost: 45H, Requires: Planar Gate, Carnival
    Unit Change: Manticore: Is buildable, Cost: 240H, Requires: Planar Gate, Grove
    Unit Change: Mobius Witch Is buildable, Cost: 150H, Requires: Planar Gate, Mage Guild
    Unit Change: Minotaur: Is buildable, Cost: 240H, Requires: Planar Gate, Obsidian Gate
    Unit Change: Reveler: Is buildable, Cost: 150H, Requires: Planar Gate, Gambling House
    Unit Change: Succubus: Is buildable, Cost: 150H, Requires: Planar Gate, Public Baths
    Unit Change: Tar Demon: Is buildable, Cost: 150H, Requires: Planar Gate, Temple of the Veil
    Building Change: Khazad Palace Loses Gold Resource, Gains Enchantment Mana
    Ritual Change: Elegy of the Sheaim Cost Halved: 600H -> 300H
    Ritual Change: Hallowing of the Elohim Cost Halved: 600H -> 300H
     
  2. Qgqqqqq

    Qgqqqqq Chieftain

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2012
    Messages:
    1,073
    Related Correspondence:
    Spoiler :






     
  3. [to_xp]Gekko

    [to_xp]Gekko QCT junkie

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2005
    Messages:
    7,926
    Location:
    Seyda Neen, Vvardenfell
    nice project you've got going on, particularly the Infernal part :D

    I think the Malakim need something aside from their leader, much of their appeal used to be Spiritual doubling up as Arcane and that's been removed, they really lack identity at the moment. I don't disagree with them not having great mages anymore, but I feel they need to get something in return.
     
  4. Terkhen

    Terkhen Chieftain

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2011
    Messages:
    908
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    This project is quite interesting, Qgqqqqq. My work in ExtraModMod owes a lot to Sareln's awesome work in Erebus in the Balance, and to the discussions in Realms Beyond which made it possible. Therefore, I would love to give some of what I got back. As I mentioned in the ExtraModMod I'm currently away from active development, but I will be more than happy to help with any coding questions, giving guidelines on how to implement stuff and the like. If you require any feature implemented in ExtraModMod, feel free to grab it (following the usual "give credit" etiquette) and to ask me for help on how to port it. Due to RL stuff I may take a while to answer, but I will be following this thread :)

    I wasn't aware about EitB v10 being delayed partly due to coding difficulties. Are you planning to merge EitB v9 with a more recent version of More Naval AI? If you are interested, I can suggest a way to do the merges which would simplify future merges greatly. It is what I used to merge what I wanted to include from EitB with a more recent version of MNAI back when I started with ExtraModMod, and it is what makes possible merging EMM with newer versions of MNAI in just a few minutes. It will take some learning, but in the long term it is IMO the best option.

    I implemented some of the proposed and completed changes for EitB v10 in EMM. Although they are very simple changes, I browsed through them just in case they are useful, and I found a single one which is still missing from your changelog:

    Promotion Change: Hero promotion gets free upgrades (really only applies to Grigori Adventurers): This and this (I messed up a bit :p)

    Besides that change, I also added many changes to EitB features in EMM. Most of them are heavily customized for EMM, and I don't believe they would be suitable for inclusion (as I mentioned, feel free to grab anything you want, though). I selected some simpler changes that IMO should be included. Bear in mind that since I had no access to EitB DLL code, some of them may have been included already by Sareln.

    The AI will cast Illumination.
    Extort now uses the standard way of scaling with gamespeed
     
  5. Qgqqqqq

    Qgqqqqq Chieftain

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2012
    Messages:
    1,073
    Thanks! I will most certainly take you up on that :)


    I'm...not sure tbh. I would love to include the AI improvements, however, as you're probably aware, the RB community - myself included - doesn't have a very positive opinion of BUG and wouldn't want it included. That said, I haven't code-dived in MNAI at all, so I'm not sure how integrated the changes are, or how easy it would be to seperate them. It's definitely on the table, though.

    Thanks! That's very useful - for some reason I had been thinking that that note referred to free promotions :duh: so hadn't put it in yet.

    I'll look into those. Probably won't bother with the DLL unless I have a bit more to do on it, however, as I'm quite pushed for time lately.


    Terkhen, specific question: is there a way to give a chance of having a promotion applied to a unit on being built available in the XML? If I have to edit the python then that's okay, but I'd rather avoid it if possible.


    Gekko, Malakim were not weakened by the SPI change. You can still mass-produce mages via savants as them, and the favored promotion is the same as the old Potency. The issue is that a) ARC was boosted so they are no longer the best at mages and b) SPI was strengthened a lot by EitB (cheapened line, cheapened units, strengthened religions). I think they're quite strong atm, and given I've just (effectively) boosted them via Varn, I'd rather not do anything until they've been tested a little. Did you have anything in mind?
     
  6. Calavente

    Calavente Richard's voice

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2006
    Messages:
    2,728
    Location:
    France
    nice project you have there.
    here are my 0.2:

    -khazad : bobchillingworth propositions are good IMO. I'm not sure of the change to the early dwarven vault on top of bob's propositions.
    here is another proposition from me : replace "gold" by "gems"... it doesn't change much for the "happy"... but it doubles well with Kilmorph, allowing to build stonewardens anytime.
    One other idea (but that would need too big changes) would be to allow their adepts to buy a pseudo channeling 2 at level 4 (or 5): "runes", which would allow to learn level 2 spells and cast level2 spells but with the downside of being unable to cast the next turn.

    varn: as you wish.

    Fawns: I disagree. But I already expressed myself on EitB on that iirc.
    Fawns do not have the vs animal... so it's normal that they don't have the vs city malus; furthermore they cannot carry hawks.
    their lack of prereq building comes from being limited to FoL religion... if you change, you cannot build them anymore.
    if you really want to balance them, make them dependant on having a FoL temple (but that would be a big beaker increase). (best way would be to have cost increase, but having FoL temple give a 20% bonus to fawn production)

    their only issue is with svarts..otherwise, few people use them with other civs.. That means that they are under-balanced IMO, and the the svarts render them OP... for svarts.
    in that case, change the sinister promotion : +10% attack or +20% attack would alleviate your concerne IMO.

    summoner:
    .I like the idea of giving "spell extension I" to all arcane unit of summoner civs...
    .further economic boni could be : reduction to obsidian gates (but a bit late: the one that allow teleportation).... alchemy lab ?(planar gates, obviously);
    a few chosen wonders and things : mercurian gates, mokka's cauldron, infernal grimoire, nexus,
    .reduced build costs for "rituals" ... (few are used, but that could help)
    .give "free" life III on upgrade to mages/archmage) ?... things like that. (thus enabling to summon champions on cemetaries quickly... and resurrect hero)
    .flat free xp on arcane unit built ? +5 , +7 or +10 ? (and on upgrade??) (allow quicker mages, but does not increase their xp-gain rate as for arcane).
    .mix of the above

    Over/Under council : dunno.
    making them at way of the wise / way of the wicked could also be a solution.

    Infernals: whatever you want.
    However I think you should increase their str in the mid-late game a bit more: in mid-late game, not only are they lacking units versus mid-late civs, but they start in very un-appealing countries, often surrounded by strong cultural zones
    So, I see two ways :
    -have the "unit number" be : 0.5 (mean number of cities of the 2(or 4) most powerful civs).
    -add some cultur-booster units to infernals : 1 per settler that spawns according to your formula.

    further: a way for them to get to build manes but with a 'limitation':
    1) expensive mane ??? (but then, the greater the city, the easier the growth... not good).
    2) mane can spawn with a ratio of the AC ???
    3) manes can spawn when champions (or other chosen unit) or Hyborem kill a unit, it being evil or good having no impact on this.

    Sheaim:
    your ideas, plus whatever changes you do on summoner, might do the trick.
     
  7. Qgqqqqq

    Qgqqqqq Chieftain

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2012
    Messages:
    1,073
    Already swapped for Enchantment. I agree that the vault might be too much as well, but I intend to alter the levels regardless (likely halving the ratio).

    This is outside the scope of this mod, to the point where I'm not bothering to consider it. It may be a good idea, but this is the wrong audience for it.

    Both have advantages and disadvantages. As is, however, the Fawn advantages are such that there is no consideration of hunters - animal bonus is roughly equal to forest bonus, perhaps slightly weaker but it doesn't match up to city malus. Furthermore, hawks come at a late tech and are something you use as support of a stack/exploration, not as part of the stack as a whole. I thought the building vs. religion balance was correct, but that the Fawn is simply a strictly superior unit to the hunter, and thus the price hike. (FoL temples come at the same tech as fawns, BTW)

    Yes they're significantly more powerful with svarts, but you will notice that Svartalfar (MP) players will not consider building hunters instead, because of the disparity. There is no need to change them based off that, recon units are meant to be strong for Svartalfar just as Moroi are for Calabim. (One of the reasons they are such a powerful civ is the strength of fawns currently.


    I'll go through these one by one:
    SE I is worth considering, certainly, as is the "Summoner" promotion.
    Reduction to any wonders or rituals will not be considered, sorry. That is too hard to balance and doesn't seem to really mesh with what a trait should be granting IMO
    Alchemy lab is already doubled, IIRC. OG is worth considering, but too late to be a significant factor. (PG has been implemented)
    Giving L3 is not going to happen for a few reasons: too swingy (Sheaim/Kuriotates/Dovellio lose out, really weak for some), weakens life mana unnecessarily, comes too late to be a factor, not really fitting with what the trait (and traits in general) should offer.
    Flat free xp feels too...clunky. Besides, it enroaches on another area greatly and would be hard to balance

    These techs have been cut ;)

    Good thoughts here.
     
  8. Calavente

    Calavente Richard's voice

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2006
    Messages:
    2,728
    Location:
    France
    truth be told :
    one trait already give all wonder a construction bonus.
    Therefore imagining a trait that give ritual construction bonus is not an aberation, or that it gives it to a few chosen wonders. As rituals are few in number, having it with other things.

    Flat xp is IMO good.
    it enables to get mages quickly without tinkering with the "increased xp rate".
    you can balance it by making the free xp low: 2 or 3xp.

    another way to "fix" would be to give 1/2 "summoning spells" that are only allowed to arcan units of summoners leaders (new spells) like : summon "imp (2/2 unit)", and summon chaos marauder with chaneling 2.

    anther way would be that summons get a special feat :
    -spirit guide ? (so they gain xp, they die, xp goes somewhere to another unit)
    -"chain of command" : xp earned by summon goes to summoner(difficult to implement I think) (or assigned according to following rule: closest arcane unit first, that has the promotion to summon it second, then with lowest xp/level third)
    -summons get a promotion : :science: per kill
    -summons get combat I

    economics:
    - buildings targeted by "arcane" as "easier to build" get a +1 :science: bonus from summoner trait: elder circle, mage guild, alchemist lab...etc : get +1:science:
     
  9. [to_xp]Gekko

    [to_xp]Gekko QCT junkie

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2005
    Messages:
    7,926
    Location:
    Seyda Neen, Vvardenfell
    re: Malakim, I'd say the citadel of light needs a boost, it's pretty much useless right now :)
     
  10. Terkhen

    Terkhen Chieftain

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2011
    Messages:
    908
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    I wasn't aware of that. What issues do you have with BUG?

    I'm sure that you could implement a permanent disable of BUG via DLL and python changes. Another option is to just enable a few BUG options while enforcing having the rest of them disabled; BUG is so huge that probably you are not against all of its features.

    I know this is more work, but in my opinion it would be a shame to not keep your work up to date with MNAI. Besides the obvious benefit of enjoying Tholal's great work in your mod, you also need to consider the positive effects of having a bigger player base and a shared code with other developers. More players mean more reports and better playtesting, and a shared code base brings you improvements and bugfixes "for free". For example, you can enjoy MagisterCultuum's awesome adaptation of the world editor (along with his bugfixes) in ExtraModMod because he took the effort of sharing that work with MNAI, and you can also enjoy less OOS issues and an improved logging system in all mods based in MNAI because I required those for ExtraModMod but decided to implement them in MNAI.

    In short; I believe that this way of working enrichs the FFH2 modding scene as a whole :)

    You are welcome :)

    Feel free to grab ExtraModMod's makefile system if you do. It borrows from many different makefiles posted in different parts of CivFanatics (mostly Nightinggale's, Asaf's and Realism Invictus makefiles), and lfgr helped me a lot to select its features and to perfect it. It requires minimal setup, works quite fast and allows to generate four different types of builds.

    To my knowledge, it is not possible. You can check how to do it in the following python code of CvGameUtils.py (applyBuildEffects method). It gives units built in a city with an Asylum a 10% chance of having the Crazed and Enraged promotions.

    Code:
    if pCity.getNumBuilding(gc.getInfoTypeForString('BUILDING_ASYLUM')) > 0:
    	if pUnit.isAlive():
    		if not isWorldUnitClass(pUnit.getUnitClassType()):
    			if CyGame().getSorenRandNum(100, "Asylum") < 10:
    				pUnit.setHasPromotion(gc.getInfoTypeForString('PROMOTION_CRAZED'), True)
    				pUnit.setHasPromotion(gc.getInfoTypeForString('PROMOTION_ENRAGED'), True)
     
  11. Tholal

    Tholal Chieftain

    Joined:
    May 19, 2009
    Messages:
    1,676
    I think that the RB Community has some mis-conceptions about what BUG does. It's simply an interface enhancement - it doesn't give any sort of advantage to payers aside from making some information easier to access.

    All the features can be disabled via XML anyway, so there is really no point in trying to cobble together an MNAI port without it. I suspect his attempt to do just this is what caused Sareln to bog down in his development of EitB.
     
  12. Qgqqqqq

    Qgqqqqq Chieftain

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2012
    Messages:
    1,073
    http://realmsbeyond.net/forums/showthread.php?tid=2204&page=3

    I don't have enough time at the moment to respond to all of the (really good!) stuff in this thread but I will say that the principle misgiving with BUG is that it creates an uneven playing field - as there is no denying that those using the mod have an advantage over those not - and thus forces the rest to use it to remain competitive. And what caused Sareln trouble in v10 was attempting to create a game option as to whether bug was in use or not. So I'm not in any hurry to try that.
     
  13. Tholal

    Tholal Chieftain

    Joined:
    May 19, 2009
    Messages:
    1,676
    There is no such thing as a completely even playing field. There are those players who get an 'advantage' by creating detailed dotmaps using Photoshop or some other graphics editing program. Or who use an Excel spreadsheet to plan out every single tech and worker move for the first 30 turns of the game. How is that any different? Those players get a leg up by using the tools available to them. Does that mean they win every game because of that? Certainly not.

    And as I said, any features that do provide information not normally available to the players (the logging feature for example - I hadn't thought of that because I never look at it myself), can be easily disabled.

    But I really don't understand the resistance to some of the features. The Great Person bar for example. You can get the same information by cycling through every single city and mousing over the GP progress information area. BUG just does that for you. It saves time and mouse-clicks. It doesn't provide any new or unavailable information. Or the score changes between turns?! The player can manually record that data at will. Or even *gasp* load up a previous turn for a comparison! A lot of the resistance I see in that thread just seems silly to me. These are all UI improvements. Why would people complain about features that present information in an easy to understand format rather than having it scattered all around?

    Anyway, I was just trying to help out. Refusing to update to the current MNAI version (which includes numerous bugfixes in addition to AI enhancements) because BUG is integrated into it doesn't make any sense to me. And attempting to integrate the MNAI changes without BUG sounds like a coding nightmare. :undecide: But it's your project, so I wont say anything further.
     
  14. [to_xp]Gekko

    [to_xp]Gekko QCT junkie

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2005
    Messages:
    7,926
    Location:
    Seyda Neen, Vvardenfell
    agreed 100% with Tholal re: BUG but to each his own :D

    Q, what do you think about changing ancient forests to no longer give defensive bonus for invaders?
    I checked how it's handled in Master of Mana, which changed it for the better imo: ancient forests have -10% defense, and FoL units get a promo that gives +20% ancient forest defense. master of mana halves promo strength compared to FFH, so this would translate to +40% . 30% defense on ancient forests seems about right to me, slightly better than regular forests.

    I'd also block alchemy labs for elves again, there wasn't a good reason to enable them in the first place imo.
     
  15. Hoplosternum

    Hoplosternum Chieftain

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2005
    Messages:
    220
    Location:
    Romford, UK
    Good luck with this Qgqqqqq. I still play ffh multiplayer (but usually just coop games with my friends over the internet) so we are always interested in any new developments in these mods.

    Currently we use MNAI but it would be great to have a go playing a mod with more of Erebus's features. I tend to play Erebus when I play sp.

    I hope you do manage to combine it with MNAI because that seems to have the most stable mp (fewest OOS errors) at the moment. And I like BUG whether playing sp or mp :)
     
  16. Qgqqqqq

    Qgqqqqq Chieftain

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2012
    Messages:
    1,073
    I've never played a great many games of FFH in quick multiplayer but I never experienced any issues, OOS or otherwise, when I did so. Are you sure these are still a problem in EitB?

    Why does FoL need strengthening?

    I will respond more fully on the BUG issues and other explored earlier later, but I geee it would be a tragedy if it made a considerable block to keeping EitB up to date and integrated in the community.

    As a sidenote, is anyone here interested in playtesting EitB Update on a pbem in the near future?
     
  17. Calavente

    Calavente Richard's voice

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2006
    Messages:
    2,728
    Location:
    France
    Qgqqqqq : the point about ancient forest is not about FoL str..
    but about Ancient forests being a fortified route for your ennemy...
    while, normally, ancient forests should be hard to invade (see treant spawning).
    So this change means that ancient forests provide less defense to invaders.
    and to equilibrate, one CAN (but does not HAVE to) increase the FoL units so that they get a BOOST of defense... in Ancient forests only (or even a boost in attack :/)
     
  18. Qgqqqqq

    Qgqqqqq Chieftain

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2012
    Messages:
    1,073
    I believe currently it is a tradeoff - in the same way that Khazadian hills might give a defence bonus but slow your attackers there is a tradeoff at hand - and whilst this may not be much of a factor in SP where stacks are invariably slow-moving, in MP it is a tradeoff I would take 80% of the time, given how strong first strikes can be.

    I mean, just in a stack vs. stack context, a bit of extra defense I nothing on the power of being the one to dish out collateral rather then take it, not to mention rust, dispel, bless, assassins, and so on, or the power of having an extra turn of warning, or your opponent not being able to swoop out and burn a city. In face of that, who cares if they get +50% defense (especially as you're likely to be the one waving fawns/satyrs around?
     
  19. Calavente

    Calavente Richard's voice

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2006
    Messages:
    2,728
    Location:
    France
    well : but then: why would having ancient forests be more damaging for defense than having normal forests ? (which do exactly the same amount of "move-stopping".)
     
  20. Qgqqqqq

    Qgqqqqq Chieftain

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2012
    Messages:
    1,073
    Because it fits the lore so well? I'd be prepared to increase the movement penalty or the chance of spawning a treeant, but the image of overbearing, gnarly trees fits with a hefty defense boost too well to negate it. And FoL units can access a pretty large attack bonus in forests to counteract it anyway so its not a particular problem.

    I'm just about ready to release an update - Hyborem issue not working out, but that doesn't have to come through now - but I'm facing a bit of an issue. I've made the Towers Team wonders, but I can't seem to make the ToM look at what wonders it's team has, as opposed to its civ, as pre-requisites. Anyone have any ideas?
     

Share This Page