1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

Err... Firaxis. Raised BY 150% and raised TO 150% are different things.

Discussion in 'CivBE - General Discussions' started by Idleray, Oct 13, 2015.

  1. Idleray

    Idleray Chieftain

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2009
    Messages:
    186
    So I just started a game with Al Falah and right away I stopped playing when I saw that her trait was completely misleading: if you raised 25%(what everyone else gets) by 150%, you get 62.5%.

    But her developments give 37.5%, which is a 50% increase, not 150%.

    The tool-tip should state raised TO 150%, or raised BY 50%.

    Percentages, how do they work?

    P.S. Before this I thought Al-Falah would be one of the top new Sponsors. Now I frankly think they're trash.
     
  2. BevHeartMuncher

    BevHeartMuncher Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2015
    Messages:
    46
    Yeah, that got me too at first. The trick in the wording is 150% conversion rate not plus 150% conversion rate. The former is x1.5 (50% increase), and the latter is x2.5 (150% increase).
     
  3. Idleray

    Idleray Chieftain

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2009
    Messages:
    186
    Anyone with a brain understands that when you increase a number by 100% you double it. If you increase it by 150% you double it and add another half.

    The game consistently uses the word BY in its descriptions of her improved character trait levels: BY 175%, BY 200%, which turn out to be actually BY 75%, BY 100%.

    This is an elementary-school level mix-up between the words TO and BY when used with percentages. It's basic math fail, Firaxis :rolleyes:
     
  4. 4N4C0ND4

    4N4C0ND4 King

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2013
    Messages:
    413
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Spain
    Actually, either 50 or 150, I do find Al Falah a really useless sponsor so far;

    I started a standard Apollo game and, although I didn't finished yet, I can't find any time where you do have time to process anything. Maybe it will be put to use for the late game, but so far so bad :(
     
  5. Doviello

    Doviello Chieftain

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2008
    Messages:
    288
    Location:
    Brazil
    I played al falah and didn't even realize that. This game has so many damn buildings i never run out of things to build, and i don't mean that in a good way. Instead of half dozen buildings making +2 beakers each, i'd rather have one or two that are more expensive but grant +% science like the university in civ V.
     
  6. Idleray

    Idleray Chieftain

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2009
    Messages:
    186
    It WOULD have been quite possible to make something of this trait because I like to build forge cities with the promethean in a city then manufactory spam, and in general I favour things that give me production.

    But an increase by 50% makes this barely any different from other factions.

    Now I'm wondering whether Firaxis screwed up with the tooltip or with the actual implementation of the trait.
     
  7. CelJaded

    CelJaded DENOUNCING!

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2015
    Messages:
    121
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    Interesting. I think Al Falah is the most powerful sponsor of the new four by a country mile.

    With maxed out diplomatic traits that provide bonuses to city developments, you can set even a few cities to research focus and break the 500 science/turn barrier with very little effort.

    Played a fairly casual Apollo game with them last night and a won a Promised Land victory in a mere 210 turns doing this. I only had 4 cities too!

    I do agree that the sponsor ability is poorly worded though. Maxed out with the other city process trait you can actually convert 80% of your cities' production into science/culture/energy/food - basically whatever you need.

    It's an ability that doesn't kick in until the late game, but when it does it's extremely powerful not to mention robust.
     
  8. Ryika

    Ryika Lazy Wannabe Artista

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2013
    Messages:
    9,396
    They didn't screw up anything, the wording is perfectly fine. It's rather your perception of what it means that is wrong.

    To give you another example:

    "Increases Worker Speed by 100%"

    If you read that and your reaction is: "Oh, so it's instant?", then you should either get some basic understanding of math (which you seem to have), or make sure that your brain gets re-wired to read what it really says (that the Speed doubles), not what a kid with no knowledge of percentage calculation would think it does - and that's not meant to be an insult, that's literally one of the main reasons why people get this wrong. That kind of language usually ingrains itself before we understand the mathematical process and needs to be re-learned later.

    If they wanted to display a flat bonus (for example because the relative value is 18.823 or something), the correct version would be like this:

    "Increases Worker Speed by +10%"

    ...indicating that it's a flat addition, not relative to the base value.

    As for Al Falahs Strength:
    They're still easily one of the strongest Sponsors. While not as strong as I assumed due to the fact that the game ends even faster and there's less time to use the processes, the amount of extra-science (and possibility to get Culture/Growth early on) eclipses most of the other Sponsors.
     
  9. Willburn

    Willburn Chieftain

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2005
    Messages:
    204
    It is a great ability but instead of 80% bonus you can easily get 55% bonus so the real bonus from Al Falah is 25% compared with others. For me it is most powerfull when used on a central trade hub to boost its food rating so all the trade cities gets loads of food bonuses. But it is also good for science and culture boosts. Also the 150-200% bonus is on the base rate of 25% not any additions from the ambitious trait. (so at 200% of 25% your base rate will be 50%)
     
  10. Gorbles

    Gorbles Load Balanced

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2014
    Messages:
    2,742
    Location:
    UK
    It's actually just grammar. If it was meant to be a 150% increase, then it would be a maths :)p) failure.

    However I doubt that'd be the case. Your calculations are right, and it's probably intended to be that kind of bonus (i.e. +50 / 75 / 100%). Still a decent number, personally.
     
  11. Idleray

    Idleray Chieftain

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2009
    Messages:
    186
    umm.. no? I know that increases in speed are tricky to convert into how many more turns it takes to do something, like performing a terra-forming action. The only way I would think something is "instant" would be if it's worded "Decreases time taken to perform terraforming by 100%". Then that should legit be instant.


    I quote from the wikipedia article on percentages;

    Again. How else do you interpret the word "by" in relation to percentages? If someone were to increase my wage by 150%, i'm expecting to be paid double time and a half. This is the only normal(i.e. math-literate) way to interpret the word "by".
     
  12. kaltorak

    kaltorak Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2009
    Messages:
    1,520
    Location:
    Madrid
    Your rudeness is even worse because you are wrong. Well, your worker example is not wrong, but telling the OP is wrong, is wrong. He is totally right, and your worker example, while beeing right too, doesn't make his example wrong, since you are talking about 100% increase vs 100% completion, while that has nothing to do with his example, where both cases are an increase.


    He says: The tool-tip should state raised TO 150%, or raised BY 50%.

    And that is right.
     
  13. Ryika

    Ryika Lazy Wannabe Artista

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2013
    Messages:
    9,396
    Yes, exactly.

    You're paid 10 Dollars. Your wage is increased by 100%. You're paid 20 dollars. (Your wage has DOUBLED)

    You're converting 25%. Your conversion rate increases by 100%. You're converting 50%. (Your conversion rate has DOUBLED)

    Again, it's just the fact that the base value is a %, not a flat number that confuses you.
     
  14. Idleray

    Idleray Chieftain

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2009
    Messages:
    186
    But we have no way currently of knowing whether if it was MEANT to be a 150% increase.

    For all we know the designers were like "Hey lets give this faction a 150% bonus to industry conversion"

    and the programmers were like "errr. ok. 150% bonus. In code That's base rate times 1.5 rite? Derp"
     
  15. Idleray

    Idleray Chieftain

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2009
    Messages:
    186
    ...It seems you're the one who is confused, my friend.

    The in game conversion is 37.5% for Al-Falah at the beginning. That's not even an increase by 150% or 100%. That's an increase by 50%.

    This is when her trait specifically says "increase BY 150%". If this were actually the case, we'd be expecting her initial conversion rate to be DOUBLE + HALF of 25%, which is 25%+25%+12.5% = 62.5%

    If the game was working as intended by the wording we'd be getting a conversion of 62.5%. Instead it's giving 37.5%. The only way this can be explained either:

    A. The designer meant 150% and wrote the tooltip. The coder mistakenly instead implemented a 50% increase
    B. The designer meant 50% and implemented as such. Whoever wrote the tooltip failed at math and wrote it wrong.

    Can you think about it for a moment before you reply please.
     
  16. Ryika

    Ryika Lazy Wannabe Artista

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2013
    Messages:
    9,396
    Ah d'oh. Totally misread your first post because I was under the assumption that you start with a 250% Conversion Rate. I'm sorry. *facepalm*

    Yes, in that case you're right, the tooltip is wrong.
     
  17. omniclast

    omniclast Chieftain

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2014
    Messages:
    475
    This is probably a good thing. People were worried that a 62.5% conversion rate would have been OP, which probably would have been true at least for the un-upgraded UA.

    But yes the tooltip should pretty clearly just be +50% to development yields, even if they mean "converts at 150% efficiency" that's unnecessarily confusing language.
     
  18. Idleray

    Idleray Chieftain

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2009
    Messages:
    186
    How is it op.

    As most people have stated, early to mid game you barely have any time to convert industry.

    I don't see how it's more op than getting instant wonders, or getting massive rewards for playing the way you should already be playing (looking at African Union here)
     
  19. Gorbles

    Gorbles Load Balanced

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2014
    Messages:
    2,742
    Location:
    UK
    Oh, absolutely. I'm just guessing based on both my experience as a programmer and the likelihood of tooltip errors over mechanical ones.
     
  20. Willburn

    Willburn Chieftain

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2005
    Messages:
    204
    Oh it is strong alright. Use it in your main city, buy the buildings there and let the agriculture bonus tick in like MAD. (You will see what I mean when you have some 300+ food per turn from 10 trade routes to your 30 cities trading with your 1 agri culture developing city.) Ofcourse trade is likely to be hit by a big nerfbat again so wont be long you can do these kinds of things.
     

Share This Page