Esential civs for a TSL Huge Earth experience, post BNW?

[Ulthwithian]

I used a slightly different approach: I want to choose Civs not only on location, but I want Civs with different 'VC biases' in their Unique traits.

To that end, I come up with:

North America

Iroquois OR US - Both are rather generalist Civs with a predilection towards expansion.
Maya - Gets the nod over the Aztec because they are Faith/Science-based.
(If one of the remaining Civs is a Plains NA civ, I would also include them.)

South America

Inca - Production-themed generalists
Brazil - Culture and Trade

East / South Asia

Korea - Science . If you use current capital locations, I feel you can only use one of China/Korea/Japan, and Korea is the most unique in CiV.
India - Another generalist.
Indonesia - Trade
Mongolia - Military
Polynesia - Culture

Middle East

Byzantines - Faith / Military
Persia - Culture / Military
Arabia - Trade

Africa

Carthage OR Morocco - Trade
Ethiopia - Faith
Zulu - Military
If there's room, Songhai

Europe

France (Culture)
Huns (Military) - If you put in Hungary or a little NE of there
Russia - Production
Portugal - Trade
Rome / Venice - Maybe. I'm not quite sure how crowded Europe gets in a TSL Earth game.

That's about the right number. Comments/suggestions welcome!

 

[EMT]

I'd say something like this:

North America:
-America/Iroquois
-Mayans/Aztecs
(If in, Sioux)

South America:
-Inca
-Brazil

Europe:
-Rome
-France
-Poland
-Byzantium/Ottomans
-Russia
-Sweden

Africa:
-Egypt
-Zulu
-Songhai
-Ethiopia/Carthage

Asia/Pacific:
-Indonesia
-China(Nanjing start)
-India
-Persia
-Huns(east of the Volga, around the city of Orel maybe?)
-Mongolia

That more or less gives each civ room to breathe a little, based on their historical starting locations.

 

[baptismbyfire]

Yeah, you do have to limit the Euro civs in order to have a good game. I think you could get four or five tops. I don't count Russia since they'd get an enormous territory in Asia. I guess you could get a sixth if the British Isles were not too small, which would require either a gigantic mod map or just making them off-scale. Otherwise, I think you're just going for the big boys, Germany, France, Sweden/Denmark, Spain and Rome/Venice (if in).

 

[Merciorum]

Europe:
England (or the Celts). (the British Isles need some kind of occupation)
France. (Not vital, could be excluded)
Spain (or Portugal). (Could be excluded, but not unless France is in)
Germany (or Poland). (Poland probably makes more sense geographically, being right between France and Russia)
Rome (or Carthage). (Not vital, could be excluded)
Russia. (Fairly vital here)
Byzantium (or the Ottomans, or Greece) (Important to stop a Balkan power vacuum. We all know what can happen with a Balkan power vacuum ).

Africa:
Morocco. (needed to curb Franco-Hispanic expansion)
Egypt. ('Cause they're awesome)
Songhai. (Stops Moroccan expansion)
Ethiopia. (Stops Arab-Egyptian expansion)

Asia:
Arabia. (Needed to check Persia-Babylon)
Persia (or Babylon). (Fills a pretty large chunk of the map)
China. (To fill an even larger chunk of the map)
Japan. (Ditto, also to check Chinese expansion)
India. (Ditto, stops Siamese expansion)
Siam. (Checks India and Indonesia)
Indonesia. (Fills a very large chunk of the map but is still near other powers)

Americas:
Iroquois. (Provides conflict with America/Other natives, but still with plenty of room for expansion)
America. (Ditto for the Iroquois/Other natives)
(one of the two above should be replaced by another Native civ if one is included, for greater geographic spread).
Aztec. (Ditto for the Maya)
Maya. (Ditto for the Aztecs)

I like to think that this is a mixture of balanced geography with typical and historical state locations.

 

[WC4J]

North America

America
Maya
The Shoshone

South America

Brazil
Inca

Oceania

Indonesia
Polynesia
(In my opinion, you need either both or neither; you cannot give one of these empires all of Oceania to run away with)

Africa

Ethiopia
Songhai
Zulu

Europe

England
Poland
Portugal
Venice

Middle East

Ottoman Empire
Assyria
Persia

Asia

China
Huns
India
Japan
Mongolia

 

[JtW]

Europe:
Rome
The Celts (to represent the indigenous people of the British Isles, as we have nothing closer)
Denmark (to represent the Vikings - could be modded to start where Sweden starts with a modified city list, otherwise they'll be to close to Germany)
Germany
Spain (if I had to choose between Spain or France I would go with Spain as they had more of an impact on geopolitics than France, IMO)
France
Poland - just because I am Polish and biased

Middle East:
Persia
Babylon
The Byzantine (to represent the Greek but with a more eastward tendency)
Arabia

Africa:
Morocco
Ethiopia
Egypt
Songhai
... hard call for Africa. I cannot imagine playing without Egypt. OTOH the four will be pretty close together. But the Zulus have never been important historically or geopolitically. It would make no sense to include them for me.

Asia:
Russia
India
China
Indonesia

The Americas:
The Shoshone or Iroquois
The Aztecs
Inca

Or, alternatively, leave the Americas empty and add some more Civs to the old world:
Mongolia or Korea
Portugal or Venice
Greece
Assyria

 

[Art Grin]

Americas:

1. America
2. Shoshone
3. Aztec
4. Inca
5. Brazil

Europe:

1. Rome
2. Greece or Byzantium
3. Germany
4. France
5. England
6. Russia

Africa:

1. Ethiopia
2. Egypt
3. Carthage or Morocco
4. Zulu

Near East:

1. Assyria
2. Persia
3. Arabia

Asia:

1. China
2. Mongolia or Japan
3. Indonesia
4. India

 

[kingchris20]

Americas:

1. Iroquois
2. Aztec
3. Brazil
4. Inca
5. Shoshone

Excluded America because with the Iroquois, Shoshone, and the Aztecs, North America is fine.
Brazil and Inca, just to ensure South America has two competing forces

Asia-Pacific:

6. China
7. Japan
8. India
9. Siam
10. Indonesia
11. Polynesia

Excluded Mongolia and Korea, because hey, above is better choices.

Africa:

12. Morocco
13. Ethiopia
14. Zulu

Awesome trio to put together on the same continent! Songhai and Egypt just wouldn't fit

Europe:

15. Portugal
16. France
17. Celts
18. Poland
19. Russia

Portugal over Spain because MARIA! also gives some space between France
Celts over England, for flavor
Poland over Germany, Austria, and Huns because of Winged Hussar!
and Russia because it's freakin Russia

Middle East:

20. Persia
21. Arabia
22. Ottomans

Best spacing for the middle east IMO, excludes Babylon, Assyria, Egypt, Byzantium, and Greece


Just think about Africa! Morocco with its desert ability, Ethiopia with its fewer cities = better fighting ability, and Zulu with its ...well you know....Zulu ability! Nice and balanced Africa, interesting!

Took Sweden off my list and added the Shoshone

 

[InsanelyApple]

America:
1) Shoshone
2) Iroquios
3) Maya/Aztec
4) Inca
5) Brazil

Africa:
6) Egypt
7) Ethopia
8) Songhai
9) Morocco/Carhage
10) Zulu

Asia:
11) India
12) Indonesia/Siam
13) Polynesia
14) China
15) Korea/Japan
16) Mongolia

Middle East:
17) Arabia/Babylon/Assyria

Europe:
18) Russia
19) Sweden
20) Byzantine/Ottoman
21) Portugal/Spain
22) Austria/Germany/Poland/Venice/Rome/France

I was going for geographic coverage and make sure each civ has plenty of room to expand. I wish they'd increase the limit to 25-30.

 

[Ulthwithian]

Hm. I am quite surprised by all of the Japan inclusions. I would think that Japan's militaristic focus + no naval traits + starting on a rather small island would make them a terrible pick for this kind of game.

I say this as someone who is a HUGE Japanophile and has a BA in Japanese Language and Culture.

Also, not sure how you can have both China and Korea in a game, given their relative proximity in capitals. I would be quite tempted to move China's capital south, I think..

 

[seancolorado]

Hm. I am quite surprised by all of the Japan inclusions. I would think that Japan's militaristic focus + no naval traits + starting on a rather small island would make them a terrible pick for this kind of game.

I say this as someone who is a HUGE Japanophile and has a BA in Japanese Language and Culture.

Also, not sure how you can have both China and Korea in a game, given their relative proximity in capitals. I would be quite tempted to move China's capital south, I think..

Agreed. Japan just doesn't work out in a TSL map

 

[truenarnian]

I hope you all like a long read. This is my favorite kind of discussion. =)

I love TSL, and I tend to like a more balanced map so there is less of a chance of runaway civs. I've also noticed I like binaries based on geographical space (like Iroquois/Shonshone), or historical (like China/Japan), etc. This list will be my next game, and it trends towards the BNW civs, since I want to see the new TSLs, and you'll notice a lot of binaries (which I will put together to make the rationale easier to understand.)

I also noticed how often I skip classical mega-civs like Rome, Egypt, Persia. I suppose this is because I've always been an underdog guy, and so I tend to prefer to see less-dominant (or less Euro/Semetic power civs). Rome bores me, Egypt is less interesting to me than Carthage/Ethiopia. Persia I hate in terms of gameplay, and a Islamo-Arabian empire appeals to me as a regional force.

I'll also give my rationale for this list. My 22 would go something like this:

Europe - 8 civs
Even though I don't like the Euro-centrism of Civ, I do think having a crowded Europe is a good thing. It facilitates wars. And Europe has had a lot of wars. Poland, Venice, and Portugal are all in for reasons of novelty.
/ Austria, for central Europe (and a counter-balance to Venice for CS)
\ Venice, for Mediterranean (and counter- to Austria for CS)
/ Denmark, for northern Europe/Scanda. Hopefully manifested as raiders. N. Eu. counter to England.
\ England, for naval. I like Celts better than England, but England means I can exclude America and settle the "Colonies" myself. If I can't break into the Washington area, I can go Caribbean. Also checks Danish expansion.
/ France - Checks Austria/Venice, Denmark/England. W. Eu counter to Portugal.
\ Portugal - Novelty. Maritime counter to England. Iberian counter to Morocco. W.Eu. counter to France
/ Poland - Novelty. Checks Russian and Danish expansion.
\ Russia - Landmass pick. Someone has to fill out that space! (For this reason, I find it hard to leave Russia off TSL maps.)

8 so far.

Americas - 5 civs. I always like populating the Americas so Shoshone (as representation of a plains empire) to counter-balance Iroquois is a good thing. I don't include USA because I like the idea of Europe having to fight their way into the Americas. BNW is giving TSL cool ways to check previously isolated starts (like Inca).
/ Iroquois - I used to counter Iroquois with America, but Shoshone makes me happier.
\ Shoshone - I like American aboriginal societies, and a great counter to Iroquois. Plains vs. Forests.
* Maya - If Monty wasn't so aggressive, I might take Aztecs, but I'll take Maya as the third wheel to the Shoshone/Iroquois pairing. (Especially with the limited expansion opportunities of C. Amer.
/ Brazil - For newness, and a check to Incan expansion. Proxy for Tupi?
\ Inca - Partly because I love the legacy of Incan culture, S. Amer. needs two civs, I think.

13 so far.

Africa - 4 civs.
/ Carthage - Medit. maritime check on Venice. Landmass check for N.Afr. I prefer them to Egypt partly because I like an aggressive, deceptive civ, and partly because I want Ethiopia to be able to expans more easily. Also, I don't much like Egypt.
\ Morocco - Novelty. Desert/Saharan landmass choice.
/ Ethiopia - A fave of mine. Expansion/military check on Carthage; military check on Zulu.
\ Zulu - Checked by Ethiopia. Landmass choice to fill out south Africa.

17 civs so far.

Asia/Pacific - 5 civs. I hate that I am limiting Asia/Pacific to 5 civs. Hate it. But it's not my fault that BNW skews Africa/Americas/Europe. So this is the area is least likely to reduplicate history.
* Arabia. They will have a lot of room to expand until Mongolia descends upon them. I expect them to be huge.
/ Polynesia - My fave civ. I won't play a TSL without them. Check on Indonesia.
\ Indonesia - Novelty. Oceania check on Polynesia. Only SE civ. (It's a smaller area, so I'm sort of okay with this even though I would love Siam/Indonesia binary.
/ Mongol - I had to pick one civ to dominate central Asia, and I like Mongols better than Huns (in part because I hate the Hunnic city-name system). So Mongols will go big.
\ Japan - An isolationist civ that might settle Korea and mix it up with Mongols.

22 civs.


My second 22
I would reduce emphasis on European friction and would focus on Asian friction.

Europe 5 civs. Let's mix it up and reduce pressure. I'm counting on city-states to fill Southern Europe. And Ottomans to take some of the Adriatic area.
/ Celts - Replace England for variety. I would pull out a lot of W.Eur. civs to let them potentially expand into traditional Celtic territory (Brittany, Galicia). Heck their expansion with Germany.
\ Germany - Dominant Euro civ. Checks Celt expansion.
/ Sweden - Scanda civ. Check Russia expansion.
\ Russia - I find it hard to play TSL without Russia to fill space.
* Ottomans - Adriatic, southern Europe.

5 civs so far.

Americas - 5 civs, no change.

10 civs so far.

Africa - 4 civs, no change. Keep Carthage to check Ottomans.

14 civs so far.

Asia/Pacific - 8 civs. Here we go! Let's introduce a lot of pressure here!
/ Korea - The defense checks China aggression. Possible tension with Japan.
\ Japan - Another civ I find hard to exclude from TSL. Historical to China and Korea.
/ China - The main power of Asia. Hopefully butt heads with India.
\ India - The secondary power of Asia? Large turtle.
* Polynesia - Always in.
/ Siam - SE power. Size checked by Indonesia and China.
\ Indonesia - SE power struggle with Siam.
* Persia - Check on India, Ottomans. Variety from Arabia.

Whew. That was exhausting.

 

[InsanelyApple]

Hm. I am quite surprised by all of the Japan inclusions. I would think that Japan's militaristic focus + no naval traits + starting on a rather small island would make them a terrible pick for this kind of game.

I say this as someone who is a HUGE Japanophile and has a BA in Japanese Language and Culture.

Also, not sure how you can have both China and Korea in a game, given their relative proximity in capitals. I would be quite tempted to move China's capital south, I think..

I'm kind of partial to China starting at Xi'an, Nanjing, or Luoyang.

EDIT: Or you could play with the Greatest Earth Map in the History of Civilization.

 

[Byzantine Bomb]

TSL Huge Earth eh? You have my attention!

22 Civs

Africa:
Ethiopia
Zulu
Morocco
Egypt
Songhai

Asia:
Arabia
India
Persia
China
Siam
Indonesia
Mongolia

Europe:
Russia
Celts
Spain or Portugal
Austria
Greece or Byzantium

North America:
Shoshone
Iroquois
Aztecs
Maya

South America:
Inca
Brazil

A crowded North Africa might force Morocco and Egypt to expand into Southern Europe and/or deeper into the Sahara. This may create conflict with Songhai, Greece/Byzantium and/or Spain/Portugal The inclusion of the Maya helps check Aztec, Incan and Brazilian expansion, preventing the latter two from become giant. Thus, more conflict is generated. Leaving out Turkey, Assyria and Babylon gives Arabia the opportunity to expand into fertile Mesopotamia, unless Persia gets there first. MORE WAR.

Wish we could have them all though.

 

[Civciv5]

I would choose...
North America:
-United States (1)
-Aztec (2)
-Inca (3)
Africa:
-Morocco (4)
-Songhai (5)
-Ethiopia (6)
-Zulu (7)
Europe:
-England (8)
-France (9)
-Germany (10)
-Spain (11)
-Ottomans (12)
-Russia (13)
-Denmark (14)
Asia:
-Arabia (15)
-Persia (16)
-India (17)
-Mongolia (18)
-China (19)
-Siam (20)
-Indonesia (21)
-Japan (22)
Civs not included:
-Shoshone: I do not really like them, I hoped for Sacajawea and they prevent the USA from expanding
-Maya: Too close too Aztecs, little space
-Brazil: Too modern, I also love to colonize the New World as any civ
-Egypt: Gives Arabia more room for expanding
-Portugal: I would love them, but too little space and too close to Spain
-Venice: Way too small, Europe is already crowded
-Netherlands: Same is above
-Sweden: Denmark represent Scandinavia good enough for me
-Poland: Squashed between Russia, Germany and The Ottomans
-Byzantium: Same capital as The Ottomans
-Babylonia: Same capital spot (Baghdad) as Arabia
-Assyria: Same is above
-Korea: Too close to Japan and China
-Rome: No opportunity to expand
-Greece: Same as above
-Huns: Where would their capital be?
-Austria: Squashed between numerous city-states, Germany and the Ottomans
-Polynesia: Too small islands to settle decent cities
-Iroquois:Way too close to America
-Celts: Too close to England

 

[kingchris20]

Hm. I am quite surprised by all of the Japan inclusions. I would think that Japan's militaristic focus + no naval traits + starting on a rather small island would make them a terrible pick for this kind of game.

I say this as someone who is a HUGE Japanophile and has a BA in Japanese Language and Culture.

Also, not sure how you can have both China and Korea in a game, given their relative proximity in capitals. I would be quite tempted to move China's capital south, I think..

I chose Japan, because with the Asia/Pacific being such a large landmass/area, you have to have several civs in that area. With China as a given, Mongolia and Korea just don't work, so you need Japan. Being on an island they will research sailing optics rather quickly, so they will be able to expand on the mainland pretty quickly. So I have no problems with them being in, they will likely expand on China and a battle will ensue, but much cleaner than a China\Mongolia or China\Korea scenario. Besides those, India and Indonesia are closest, so there has to be two civs in that area.

 

[JtW]

I would choose...
North America:
-United States (1)


Civs not included:

-Brazil: Too modern, I also love to colonize the New World as any civ

You exclude Brazil because they are too modern but include the US?

 

[Civciv5]

You exclude Brazil because they are too modern but include the US?

The United States is one of the greatest civilizations in history, according to me at least, Brazil on the other hand, is not. I also like to conquer the New World as Spain or any European civ and the Aztecs and Inca are already troublesome, adding another New World civ would be annoying to me.

 

[Princeofnigeria]

For balanced spread
Americas:
1. America
2. Shoshone
3. Aztecs
4. Inca
5. Brazil
Europe:
6. England
7. Netherlands
9. Poland
10. Rome
Asia:
11. Ottomans
12. Russia
13. Mongolia
14. China
15. Babylon
16. India
Africa:
17. Egypt
8. Morocco
18. Zulu
19. Songhai
20. Etheopia
Islands:
21. Indonesia
22. Polynesia
Blank spots:
Scandanavia (crap land)
Canada (no civs)
Australia (no civs

 

[Casper84]

This is my current TSL Earth setup with the Y(N)AEMP mod. A few notes beforehand:
-No barbs (to help civs spread, mostly Maya)
-No ancient ruins (to balance the lack of barbs)
-don't scale resources (with this turned off I got a 9 crab location in the pacific ocean as Polynesia)
-abundant resources (hopefully helps civs settle more cities in S.America/Africa/Asia

Started a game as Polynesia on Emperor with this last night. Hopefully it will turn out ok. Btw I don't have the Babylonia, Korea and Denmark DLCs.

I'm taking the geographical approach as well. And the main reason I want to encourage more aggressive settling by civs in more open lands is that I don't like to see single cities settled randomly around the world. Single-area empires please.
The civs, from east to west, which is the order at which I want them to have their turns as well:
Polynesia
Japan
China
Mongolia
Indonesia
India
Assyria
Russia
Zulu
Ethiopia
Sweden
Rome
Songhai
Carthage
England
Portugal
Brazil
Inca
Iroquois
Maya
Aztecs
Shoshone

Siam's location would have a city state or two. Hopefully Sidney spawns as well. I put Genghis in because he went for the central Asian city states last time around. China can settle a lot of south east Asia if it wants to and isn't harassed by Genghis too much. Lhasa should be in between India and China as well.
Assyria has room to become a fairly dominant civ in the middle east. I could swap Assyria and Iroquois for Arabia and America for a more modern feel.
Hopefully Russia will have the resources to expand a bit more a bit earlier.
Zulu, Ethiopia and Songhai are more or less no brainers but I hope Zulu don't go ape on Ethiopia (and I want them to bloody settle Madagascar - maybe I should play them). I kept Egypt out because they tend to turtle up and spam wonders rather than expand.
Rome can take inland Europe while England, Sweden, Carthage and Portugal keep them in check settling around him. Plus there'll be a few city states in the centre so they can have some fun there.
In the America's the concern was whether to include Aztecs or not. I did so for 2 reasons:
-Shoshone may get too powerful if they have that much room
-I want Maya to expand east into South America, not west. Hopefully the Aztecs won't kill them before then, but they've kept them alive most of the time before.

I do have the 43 civ DLL, so if I use that but keep 22 civs, maybe more city states will spawn, provided they have room?