Espionage Economy?

[bardolph]

Has anyone done any serious analysis of an economy that relies heavily on espionage and tech stealing as opposed to original research? How well would this work?

 

[bonafide11]

I don't think its very effective. I haven't seen anyone say they've had great or consistent success with it.

 

[Bernhardt]

I'm interested on this topic as well, and would like to hear more comments. As I've heard online play is still heavily warmonging oriented, I'm concidering developing a very espionage oriented playstyle.

I need to have something deeper than just building units, hehe.

 

[Martinus]

In the strategy forum there is a good analysis of a variant of espionnage economy which basically is post-Emancipation specialist economy retooled to run spy specialists, as opposed to scientist specialists.

 

[gunter]

I don't see the matter in terms of black and white only,I would like to have also a grey option. I mean that most of the times I climb the tech tree by myself,sometimes also trading techs but never stealing an enemy tech just becuase it's too damn expensive.

The prize IMO to steal technology is usually dedicated to other activities,rarely I stockpile to spend all the budget in a stolen tech. This spy performance should be cheaper. Are you used to do that ?

In addition conquering an enemy city as far as I am aware of gives you no more a free tech....I would have prefered that cities above 10 of population could allow such a practice.

 

[Roxlimn]

The early game Great Wall - Great Spy espionage-based economy has basically been rated absolutely broken and borderline cheating. You can steal so much tech from one Great Spy that it feels dirty.

 

[bardolph]

In the strategy forum there is a good analysis of a variant of espionnage economy which basically is post-Emancipation specialist economy retooled to run spy specialists, as opposed to scientist specialists.

can you post a link to this thread?

 

[johnny_rico]

The early game Great Wall - Great Spy espionage-based economy has basically been rated absolutely broken and borderline cheating. You can steal so much tech from one Great Spy that it feels dirty.

Agreed, it's completely broken and can be further exploited the higher up in difficulty you go. Considering that you can steal a tech for fewer espionage points than beakers invested, one can run an SE based on spies/merchants with the commerce slider geared heavily towards espionage points. There are enough multipliers for EPs to counter the beaker multipliers available. Basically, the higher in difficulty you play, the faster your tech rate will be.

Of course, this is all predicated on building the Great Wall. The early great spy provides a great base of EPs for your first victim. If you can manage the oracle as well, take alphabet and start cranking out spies. There is a lot of versatility here but again, it's pretty much an exploit but can be a fun variant to try something different.

Gilgamesh is a great leader to try this with. With his UB available so early, one can start running early spies.

 

[bardolph]

Agreed, it's completely broken and can be further exploited the higher up in difficulty you go. Considering that you can steal a tech for fewer espionage points than beakers invested, one can run an SE based on spies/merchants with the commerce slider geared heavily towards espionage points. There are enough multipliers for EPs to counter the beaker multipliers available. Basically, the higher in difficulty you play, the faster your tech rate will be.

Of course, this is all predicated on building the Great Wall. The early great spy provides a great base of EPs for your first victim. If you can manage the oracle as well, take alphabet and start cranking out spies. There is a lot of versatility here but again, it's pretty much an exploit but can be a fun variant to try something different.

Gilgamesh is a great leader to try this with. With his UB available so early, one can start running early spies.

What are the numbers on this strategy, why is it more exploitable at higher difficulties, and why do you consider it broken?

 

[eewallace]

I've done the Great Wall/great spy/steal tech thing. Franklly, it is a much better reason to build the Great Wall than keeping the barbarians out. It works best when you have a near neighbor who is teching fast in the early part of the game. I never thought of it as borderline cheating or even an expliot, though--it is just one of the ways you can leverage a wonder. Although, come to think of it, I've never seen the AI do it...

It doesn't really serve as the basis for a whole spy economy, though--at least for me. It can, however, secure a good tech lead while you are building up your economy in order to keep your research beakers higher.

 

[Dier]

but never stealing an enemy tech just becuase it's too damn expensive.

There are a lot of things that lower the cost of stealing techs:
-if your state religion is present in targeted city;
-if you have open borders/ trade with targeted city;
-if your spy is stationary (which I think with open borders you can safely do while it's on a ship) it knocks off 10% for every turn up to 50%;
-distance of targeted city figures in: the closer, the cheaper;
-finally there is a spending discount: the more espionage you're running (on the slider I think) the bigger that discount.

In one recent game I was stuck on an island for far too long; when I finally thought of getting caravels going and met the other civs, all huddled together and happily trading techs, I was behind like never before. Through stealing I managed to catch up. I think I stole Radio for 4000 EPs, which took me less than 4 turns to gather; researching it would have taken 6 turns. It just needs some commitment to make it work...[/end of testimonial]

 

[Brad55]

It's more powerful on higher difficulties simply because the AI can tech a lot faster and has far better techs available for you to steal.

 

[Mesix]

What are the numbers on this strategy, why is it more exploitable at higher difficulties, and why do you consider it broken?

On higher difficulties, the AI gets bonuses to research and starts with extra units (worker and settler) that allow for faster tech production. The higher the difficulty level, the more you can gain from espionage. At very low difficulty levels, you will be ahead of most AI civs in tech, so espinage will not net you as much gain.

 

[Neo Guderian]

Tech stealing is very powerful. I have adopted this as my primary strategy. Its sick with elizabeth.
The important thing to note is not to burn that great spy on infiltrate. Use it for scotland yard. Just think of it as an Oxford for eps.

So, with a scotland yard, running a spy specialist, a bunch of cots in your civil service capitol, with ep rate at around 50%, you will be generating insane eps.

I love this and don't think its broken, just needs some tweaking. For example, buildings producing eps is probably too great. Think how cool it would be if libraries generated 2 raw beakers or forges generated 2 raw hammers...

 

[bardolph]

It's more powerful on higher difficulties simply because the AI can tech a lot faster and has far better techs available for you to steal.

That would make it more useful, but not more powerful, unless the price in EP's for each tech does not scale with difficulty the way that the price in beakers does.

 

[johnny_rico]

What are the numbers on this strategy, why is it more exploitable at higher difficulties, and why do you consider it broken?

This question has been answered by brad55 and mesix

Tech stealing is very powerful. I have adopted this as my primary strategy. Its sick with elizabeth.
The important thing to note is not to burn that great spy on infiltrate. Use it for scotland yard. Just think of it as an Oxford for eps.

So, with a scotland yard, running a spy specialist, a bunch of cots in your civil service capitol, with ep rate at around 50%, you will be generating insane eps.

I love this and don't think its broken, just needs some tweaking. For example, buildings producing eps is probably too great. Think how cool it would be if libraries generated 2 raw beakers or forges generated 2 raw hammers.

I think you can go with scotland yard for a financial leader right away. Early on though, if a leader is non financial, I've had more success with a spy bomb first and then follow with scotland yard(s).

You don't think it is broken? It beats researching techs on your own, it's cheaper in terms of commerce invested, and the multipliers available can match science buildings, if not pass them up. For my own playing style, it's worn out its usefulness by guilds, etc on monarch. On emperor, it can be useful for an entire game. I think some guys in the succession game forum demonstrated this nicely.

 

[johnny_rico]

That would make it more useful, but not more powerful, unless the price in EP's for each tech does not scale with difficulty the way that the price in beakers does.

I'd have to disagree. If one were employing this strategy on noble difficulty, it won't be very long before there is nothing left to steal. As the difficulty level is increased, the AI will crank out techs much faster yielding more stolen technology. On emperor/immortal, this can be utilized for an entire game.

Because of its diminished usefulness on lower difficulty levels, I'd rather invest my economy in a different direction from the start rather than set up a spy economy and then shift gears. All in all, it isn't tough to make the switch. But it would be a bummer if you're left over with many unused EPs, especially when it is ones own commerce invested as opposed to a spy bomb.

 

[bardolph]

You don't think it is broken? It beats researching techs on your own, it's cheaper in terms of commerce invested, and the multipliers available can match science buildings, if not pass them up. For my own playing style, it's worn out its usefulness by guilds, etc on monarch. On emperor, it can be useful for an entire game. I think some guys in the succession game forum demonstrated this nicely.

It should be cheaper, since you are limited in what techs you can choose, you cannot adopt the strategy if you are the tech leader, and your rivals can foil you by spending against you or capturing your spies. Also, technologies gained through technology stealing have far less trade value than monopoly techs that you research on your own.

Also, espionage point multipliers are harder to come by in the early game than science/gold multipliers.

My question is, how much cheaper is a tech obtained through espionage compared to the same tech obtained through research? I know I can play a few games and research this question on my own, but I was wondering if anyone else has already done this research.

 

[bardolph]

I'd have to disagree. If one were employing this strategy on noble difficulty, it won't be very long before there is nothing left to steal. As the difficulty level is increased, the AI will crank out techs much faster yielding more stolen technology. On emperor/immortal, this can be utilized for an entire game.

This is a semantical argument. I'm not asking whether or not espionage is a good idea for the tech leader. I'm asking what kind of savings do you get from espionage when you are not the tech leader.

 

[Dier]

I guess my testimonial didn't do much for you then...

One other thing that makes stealing attractive is that you FIRST gather the points and THEN execute the theft. You can check F4 right before you steal to see which tech is most beneficial (for trading purposes). If you research a tech, you commit to that one tech many turns before you actually get it. It may lose all trade value in those turns...