Espionage Maniacs Challenge Pre-Game

[Detektyw]

This game's gonna be something very different than things all you know. Basic rules:

a) Tech brokering disabled
b) Permament peace
c) No barbs
d) I'm not allowed to research any tech after alphabet, all must be stolen
e) Only space race victory enabled
f) Prince difficulty level
g) Normal speed
h) Huge Pangaea
i) 16 Civs

As for leaders I think either of Darius or Huayna, I do however lean towards Incas, as with so many civs I'm not gonna expand oh-so-much, and therefore I won't need the cut of maintaince costs as much as it's needed in an imperialistic game. He also has mysticism as a starting tech which will allow me to found an early religion, which will be needed for boosting my espionage, alternatively, I can go after CoL which will get me both courthouses (+2 raw and enables a spy specialist) and confucianism, it might also be very beneficial as if a city you are conducting an espionage mission in has your state religion but your target doesn't, you get 25% discount on mission which I like very much. Also, industrious can be abused nicely, as I have a few critical wonders and cheap forges allow the whipping tricks faster.

Financial means going for the cottage economy, and I'd just love to make my capital the spy city, and while I'll focus on cottages, I definitely don't mind running spy specialists as they accelerate the rate. Several great spies will definitely come in handy as there are some very important uses for them, including the Scotland Yard (+100% ) and basic Join City (+12 raw ). This would just rock if accelerated by bureaucracy, which is to be used until nationhood.

I'm planning on REX-ing so I can get as much productive land as possible (note that the original landgrab is very unlikely to change due to Permament Peace).

Some wonders I think would be useful:

- Cristo Redendor
- The Oracle for early tech boost
- The Great Wall for great spies
- The Kremlin for +2 spy slots and points towards spies
- The Space Elevator - The breaktrough wonder in this game, accelerates going for the only victory goal
- The Three Gorges Dam - letting me get rid of those coal plants in modern era

And of course if something new turns out this list is adjustable.

Tell me what do you think about the idea and if anyone is interested in seeing this game played.

 

[xanadux]

With permanent peace and prince level, the best leader will give you the best REX and possibility for culture flipping cities. Should be an easy win as long as your initial land isn't horrible. One or 2 extra good cities will be worth more than any leader trait.

 

[Refar]

From Huayana and Darius i think Daruis is the better one. Organized will let you expand quickly. Industrious (Huayana) on the other hand might be rather "lost" - you will not build to many wonders, as they would pollute your Spy GPP's, You will skip some National wonders as well - Oxford, troop related ones, with some bad luck no Moai as well on Pangaea.

 

[TRJS]

This sounds interesting. Will be following. Hence this subscribing post.

 

[madscientist]

With always peace, no tech brokering, and no research on the sciene slider I will be very interested in how you get the space win!!!

First a question: How does tech brokering affect stolen techs. Examples, you get guilds in a trade, you cannot trade it to another AI, that's easy. If you research Guilds you can trade it to all, if you steal how does that fit????

Now, no war and 16 leaders, I am thinking you want an Imperialistic leader that start with mining. Perhaps cultural. Catherine comes to mind, perhaps Suliman too. Build a worker first and tech BW. Then chop as many settlers as possible and settle as fast as you can. No military is needed, so all you need is a warrior for protection.

Things to consider:

You will never lead in tech.
You will not get liberalism first.
You will get no free great person.
You will found no religion, since you cannot capture one you will never have a shrine.
You will be unlikely to get a wonder outside the early ones as the AI will get the unlocking tech first.
You will be starting Apollo at least one turn after one AI.

Sound slike fun, post the save I'll likely shadow it, at least to avoid wars for a game.

 

[Detektyw]

Well, thanks for all the responses, and I would like to answer several things as mentoined by madscientist:

First a question: How does tech brokering affect stolen techs. Examples, you get guilds in a trade, you cannot trade it to another AI, that's easy. If you research Guilds you can trade it to all, if you steal how does that fit????

No tech brokering means ABSOLUTELY NO tech brokering, and I don't think I'll get to research guilds as all I'll be getting's gonna be several beakers from spy specialists and without acceleration with science buildings it's extremely few.

You will never lead in tech.
You will not get liberalism first.
You will get no free great person.

Indeed.

You will found no religion, since you cannot capture one you will never have a shrine.

Meditation, Polytheism and Monotheism come before alphabet.

You will be unlikely to get a wonder outside the early ones as the AI will get the unlocking tech first.

Well, usually off by only one turn, so proper planning can get me the critical wonders.

You will be starting Apollo at least one turn after one AI.

While it's indeed a point,
it might not be as bad, as I intend to get the space elevator by rushing it with GEs.

Also, leaders as according to your suggestions could be:

Augustus Caesar	Roman	Imperialistic	Industrious	Mining	Fishing	Praetorian (8/1/45)	Forum
Catherine	Russian	Imperialistic	Creative	Mining	Hunting	Cossack (15/2/120)	Research Institute
Joao II	Portuguese	Imperialistic	Expansive	Mining	Fishing	Carrack (3/3/60)	Feitoria
Julius Caesar	Roman	Imperialistic	Organized	Mining	Fishing	Praetorian (8/1/45)	Forum
Victoria	English	Imperialistic	Financial	Mining	Fishing	Redcoat (14/1/110)	Stock Exchange

Joao seems to be out because of expansive which seems a poor synergy with imperialistic, so I'd lean either towards Catherine or Vicky.

I'd be grateful for further comments.

 

[xanadux]

I like Elizabeth for EE. Financial means more EPs from the slider, and philisophical means more Great Spies for Scotland Yards.

I don't see a problem with winning a space race. With good planning, you will have any tech you need the turn after the AI, and with superior production, should be able to launch first.

As for no self-teching after Alphabet, what is the definitition here? We can tech anything we want as long as we delay alphabet? No techs more expensive than alphabet? Only techs in the Ancient age?

 

[madscientist]

I think any of the early religions are a non-issue considering the leaders that would help best.

Catherine starts off with a scout which helps with scouting and hut popping. The creative may be the best considering no military expansion is allowed. Her UB is one of the best for space wins but you are not teching via beaker so it's pretty insignificant.

I like Victoria next because she starts with fishing and you have a good chance at building the population quickly early IF you have access to seafood. The UB will definitely help.

Julius and Agustus has a UB that fits with getting Great Spies faster. The problm is I do not see organized or Industrious helping much there, although Agustus may help getting the GW built faster for the Great Spy points, but the wonder is pretty much insignificant on this type of game.

I still like Suiliman, since he is also Philosophical but does not start with Mining, although the wheel and agriculture are good for fast early expansion. The UB has some good use too.

SO I would rank them as Cathy>Victoria>Suliman>Agustus

One final question. Privateer can be used in peace, are you going to build them? Also the AI will likely build them so you'll need a minimal navy of frigates.

 

[Detektyw]

No beaker techs after alphabet means just what it means: After I have researched alphabet I can't acquire a tech by own research.

About privateers: That's a new concept to me as I've been owner of BtS for like 2 weeks but as such is gonna be employed.

There's one crucial thing: How much /turn we need, also how it is gonna be generated. This thing has to be analyzed a bit in order for me to know if a financial leader is needed. My analysis of espionage spending, however seems to conclude as follows: You get ~2x bonus when complained to beaker economy because of spending, not because of the greater amount of generated, and so I don't think that financial is a necessary trait.

Creative can be made up for by stonehenge but it pollutes the pool with GP points which is not exactly what I want, and so that indeed is a point. Imperialistic is a must due to the original land grab being the final one almost certainly. After all, I'm gonna outspend the enemies significantly in so my mission costs become lower automatically.

Ok then, it's Cathy.
Having decided this, I think the game will be started tomorrow so the starting location can be discussed and further strategy created.

 

[Detektyw]

The map is the very first one the game's gotten me , no regens.

Options:



This is the starting location:



As you can see I've arleady moved the scout to reval what was around.
I think I should simply settle in place, but I also think that 1 NE wouldn't be so bad. I'd like to hear your comments.

Let's get the party started!

Attaching the savegame.

 

[qwertz]

quite nice start; 14 forestes for choping settlers + stone for the GW.
i would settle in place

 

[Refar]

I would cross the river to settle on one of the plains hills there - one more hammer from city center is very valuable in the openning.

Move Scout S, SE to the hill the see whats there first, then choose if you take the hill E or NE from where the settler is now. The boarders will pop in 4 turns for cow and stone. You loosing the flood plain, but the City does not strike me as Commerve Heaven, so the floodplain probably will be of more use in another city anyway.

Depending on wahts to the East even giving up the Silk could be a option - is a calendar ressource. Until then it will be withing culture boarders or claimed by another city.

[Edit] Grrrm. I can't shadow the game because of the BUG

 

[qwertz]

as he already moved the scout, he can't really know what's in the east, so moving the settler randomly on one of the hills can be quite risky. I wouldn't risk losing some forestes, flood plain(s) and a turn because of the 1, especially not in a game where early REXing is that important.

 

[Refar]

Well i dont really see the risk - knowing what there would be nice, but moving does not loose nothing. Well 1 Turn - yes, the first build - assuming a worker - will be done faster by more than one turn, thanks to that one hammer.

Settling in place working the - lets say cow - it doesn't matter as nothing is improved - will have the Worker built in 15 turns. Moving up the hill will have the Worker done in 12 Truns + 1 Turn for moving. Those are 2 Turns saved. Similar account will be true for buildinf Settlers - even more there as Imperialistic Bonuses Hammers but not food when building a Settler.

So basicly moving up that hill is for sure good for rexing. Anyway in regard to rexing: Its a huge map. There will be space left, long after the economy cant support anymore cities.

What's left is the tech. He is not going for a religion isn't he ? As this is the only thing where that one turn matters.

 

[Detektyw]

I've settled in place, and this needs a bit of analysis now.



The problem is that I want to have a worker done as soon as BW is complete. As I have no commerce tiles it's gonna be 17 turns. We can't, however, forgot the border pop, which will happen in 3 turns. By then, the city will have produced 27 :research: towards BW, leaving 171 :research: to go. Right now I'll go for the 3 forested hill and produce a scout for faster map revealing. This will produce grand total of
4 per turn and that means the scout completed in 4 turns with 1 overflow. As I have +50% bonus towards settler, each two I produce will yield additional one, so I want to keep count even when producing a settler. I'll also want the city to pop until I start producing the worker. I have 22 to go, so I think I'll micromanage the citizen to the 3 + 1 tile. The city will pop after 7 turns with 2 overflow, it'll also accelerate the research on BW, and so after all aforementoined 11 turns it'll be 92 :research: left to completion of BW. Worker is exactly 60 . I'll relocate the second citizen to work the elephant tile and the first back to the hill. This means 6 and 10 :reserach: per turn which means I'll have both the worker and BW (+8 :research: overflow) complete in 10 turns, whoohoo!

As this is the complete plan for next 17 turns it's gonna be the topic of this post.

Turn 2:

I was lucky enough for the village to give me secrets of The Wheel which means one less tech to research!

Turn 7:

Next goody hut gets me 78

Turn 9:

My hard work with all the planning turns out to be pointless, a goody hut gives me Bronze Working .

This means a new plan, but first a turn of anarchy for the slavery switch.

I also meet Gilgamesh, he's Creative and Protective, and while his second trait is kinda useless on this map, I'm gonna have to fight for land with him, and his ziggurats are gonna be online faster than my courthouses (at least I think so).

Turn 10:

москва:



I'm waiting for the city to grow in order to start producing a worker, while also deciding to research masonry further.

The top solution seems to work both floodplains further when producing the worker, yielding 12 :reserach: and 5 / turn.

Turn 11:

Buddhism is founded in a distant land.

Turn 12:



I meet Hannibal, seems like the cow to milk for techs.

Turn 13:

Hinduism is founded in a distant land.

I meet Ramesess, seems like I'm gonna fight for wonders against him.

Turn 14:

Moscow grows, I change the production orders as planned before.

Turn 17:

I meet Genghis.

Summary and further plans:

Generic state of the world:





As soon as the worker is finished, I'ma chop the a settler, then a worker and two settlers, I know that it's stifling and so on, but this game is extremely dependent on the initial land grab and so REX-ing has to be done.

As for research I think Masonry > Agriculture > Animal Husbandry > Pottery

Any feedback will be appreciated, the thing's gonna be continued tomorrow.

 

[TRJS]

Gilgamesh's creative trait will reduce your chance of city flipping. Hope he is not your closest neighbour.

 

[Refar]

I was able to load the save after all - it seems BUG is not needed.

I have very bad news however.

e) Only space race victory enabled

In the game however, ALL victories BUT space race are enabled.

Spoiler :

As it is a Allways Peace, Domination and Conquest are unachieveable. So what's left is culture and diplo. Both are not too tech dependant however...

Sorry

 

[Detektyw]

Holy crap, this is something done oh-so-wrong, so this means starting a new game. Moving the thing to another thread so all the confusion is avoided.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=6228452

 

[Julian Delphiki]

I was able to load the save after all - it seems BUG is not needed.

I have very bad news however.In the game however, ALL victories BUT space race are enabled.

Spoiler :

As it is a Allways Peace, Domination and Conquest are unachieveable. So what's left is culture and diplo. Both are not too tech dependant however...

Sorry

Take a look at Cultural Domination SG.

 

[Refar]

Interesting game^^. There is however a slight difference: doing this on a Small map and Epic Speed against Huge map on Normal that we have here.