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Espionage needs to be worked on...

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by Mustakrakish, Jun 23, 2012.

  1. Mustakrakish

    Mustakrakish In 'Node' We Trust

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    People already said it, but...

    I thought it would bring just as much if not more PITA than fun... and it did.
    Have 2 mercantile CS allies, providing me a net of 34 happiness. Lots of effort and money sinked into them.
    Suddenly Incan coup in Zanzibar,
    moved spy into Zanzibar - coup success,
    next turn - Incan coup,
    some turns later - coup chance 60% (decided to wait)
    some turns later - completed quest, nothing, Inca still ally,
    some turns later - coup chance 5% (WTF)
    some turns later - money gift, success,
    next turn - Incan coup,
    gave up,
    some more turns later - quests and money, success,
    next turn - Incan coup,
    gave up.

    That's the short version. There's absolutely no way this should go on unchanged. In this particular scenario, there was nothing I could do, nothing except destroying Inca with Nuclear fire and pissing on their graves, which I did later, BUT...
    I want to be awarded for all that effort went on focusing on these 2 city states, doing every freakin quest, amassing tons of influence. And instead I'm being punished. All this effort for nothing. I would be fine with this if there was something I could do about it.

    Idea

    It would be great if coups could be done when rival (me in this case) influence is in between of 60-100. If it's higher than 100 influence, then coup is not possible ("Coup is not possible right now, Celtic presence in this City is too strong" or something like that). That way people who really spent a lot of effort into some city states, wouldn't get screwed.
    And how about spies being able to play spy game with each other in a CS? That way, again one could at least fight it. They kill rival spies in your territory as they do in theirs, what about CS? Is there a better place for that classic spy game, than a third party city? Difference is, they would not kill, but compromise the rival spy, sending them into "hideout" and banning entrance to that particular CS for 10 turns. Higher ranking spy would naturally have more chance on compromising the other.
     
  2. Siggy_23

    Siggy_23 Chieftain

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    What about instead of making it straight impossible, what if, for every influence you have over 60, it lowers the chance of a successful coup because the people will get suspicious.

    Also allowing spies to be defenders of an already allied city state seems axiomatic, they really should have done that in the first place.
     
  3. rune42

    rune42 Chieftain

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    You're looking at it from the wrong perspective. If they're managing a coup against you that much, it doesn't mean espionage is a PITA, it means the competing Civ is a PITA.

    Success of a coup depends on ally favor vs. coup favor. You can prevent a coup by making sure your favor is much higher than another Civ's favor. If you can't widen the favor gap, that means they're earning just as much, if not more than you.
     
  4. Gomer_Pyle

    Gomer_Pyle Prince

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    In my last playthrough in GaK I played on standard Pangea on Prince difficulty. Early on I was strong as ususal but Carthage was about the same size most of the game. That was until we got runaway Inca. Inca controlled all city states and nobody could do anything about it. Every spy got killed and they declared war on everyone too so "peace was blocked". So basically they used espionage to keep all the city states within their empire. I lost my ally city state faster than I could spell city state. It is clear to me that espionage needs work. In the hands of a runaway espionage only make them more of an runaway. End game was me losing SV by 20 turns. My 5 cities against his 40+ city states. It is probably the fact that the AI tend to become runaways that makes espionage unbalanced in my eyes. The ideas of limiting the coup possibilities if your influence with a city state is above 100 or so is great ideas.
     
  5. dexters

    dexters Gods & Emperors Supporter

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    Im not clear on this, did you plant your spies in the CS to counter their coups?
    Especially since you are focusing on just 2 CS, you can spare the spies.

    But yeah coup is a problem. I think it's an interesting concept, I don't want them to 'fix' it by nerfing it so much or by removing it entirely. It needs to be rethought where a successful coup may not erase all your influence. It seems like if you can kill off their spies early with coup failures, they'll just keep feeding in lvl 1 spies.

    Once their spies succeed and star to level up, it gets harder. Aside from making coups a little bit harder, This is where they need to work on in terms of what happens after the spy had a success and leveled up.

    -A possibility is a counter-coup When a coup happens you get a 10 turn window to place a spy (if you don't already have one to reinstall the deposed leaders) if successful you get your influence back.
    -Another adjustment is to make is such that if a coup fail their influece with the CS erodes significantly, into the negative territory and they would have to rebuild it from there. Counter-coups failing would be exempted as the party in charge already penalized the original ally by removing their influence.
     
  6. Gomer_Pyle

    Gomer_Pyle Prince

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    No I did not plant my spies in my allied CS's. Reason being he managed somehow to ally all CS's before I even got a spy. And since he was in war with everyone peace was blocked. I was not able to capture even one of my CS's back with spies during the entire end game. I am not the best player out there but I still feel up to the task of holding 2 CS's as allies.
     
  7. jjkrause84

    jjkrause84 King

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    Espionage would be improved simply by giving the player CHOICES. Spies do all this stuff on their own....you just select the location. Being able to choose to increase influence (greater chance of success), or lower influence of rival, or stage a full on coup (lesser chance of success) would be better. Likewise, spies in foreign cities should be able to do more than just stealing techs.....let the player choose!
     
  8. dexters

    dexters Gods & Emperors Supporter

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    You should have. MadDjinn confirms it makes it more difficult.

    Also, when the first players reaches the Renaissance everyone gets a spy (to even the playing field so to speak) you should have had at least 1 spy.
     
  9. Cicerosaurus

    Cicerosaurus Emperor

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    I see you can now send spies to a "Hideout". Hadn't heard of that.
     
  10. Miravlix

    Miravlix King

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    *shakes head* Your so sure of your own superiority that you first reaction is THIS IS BROKEN because the system beat you.

    How about asking how things work?

    If you want to prevent coups over influence the citystate, depending on difficulty that is going 100+ influence. This will kill the spy attempting to coup because the chance gets to low when your influence is so much higher than the other civs.

    Run away civs is a player problem not a game, it's part of the challenge for the player to stop the runaway. If you can't stop them, it's time drop difficulty level and/or learn better tactics.
     
  11. DrPostman

    DrPostman Chieftain

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    I'm still trying to figure out what "move to hideout" means, exactly. I can't find
    the word "hideout" using the game help search, nor can I find it in the game
    manual using the PDF search feature. Can anyone enlighten me please. I'll
    gladly plead ignorance.
     
  12. Cicerosaurus

    Cicerosaurus Emperor

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    I'm afraid I can't help. I did a search of Civi and found nothing and that is why I did a word search of the board. This thread is one of the few I found.

    I seen to be able to send my first spy there but it doesn't tell me why I should or what benefits I gain.
     
  13. TheMarshmallowBear

    TheMarshmallowBear Benelovent Chieftain of the BearKingdom

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    May I clear something up, if you have favor or influence.. higher than the AI then.. you are the ally..

    The whole idea of coup is to switch influence levels, the closer you are to the other ally's level of influence, the higher the chance for the coup.

    Which sucks, because I think it would be very useful if I could coup a city state that I have a blocked peace with because they are allies with another ally, would be nice punch in the face if I could flip them to my side instead.
     
  14. Furycrab

    Furycrab King

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    I've found that the AI knows when a City state has strategic value. I had a game where it was a back and forth war for a Citystate that had 14 coal.

    I actually find it refreshing that the AI actually uses a mechanic. I would find it stupid when in Vanilla you'd sometimes get a game where you'd get all CSes with no one fighting for em, even if someone had 15k gold or something stupid.

    You can dump a LOT of extra gold in a City State, you can leave a Super Agent in that citystate to stop him from rigging elections, or you can kill the guy.

    I just wish there were ways of communicating/letting the AI know that it pisses you off, or ask them to stop so that they get negative modifiers with other civs if they don't.
     
  15. nefloyd

    nefloyd King

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    If you want to stop coups, you need to keep gifting or doing quests such that you stay far enough ahead to make enemy coups have a 0% chance
     
  16. Barghaest

    Barghaest King

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    It puts the spy back in the starting location (no city).

    The purpose of this eludes me right now... unless if you have all your spies in the hideout for a period of time the "Stop spying on me" promise fades...
     
  17. Cicerosaurus

    Cicerosaurus Emperor

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    If that was the case though (stop spying on me) you could just recall them to your own cities and stop espionage - or move them to a CS. I have no idea what it does.
     
  18. Adjuvant

    Adjuvant Emperor

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    Yeh, what's the hideout bit about?
     
  19. Montov

    Montov King

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    Maybe if there are no CS, no known AI's and you already have a spy in your only city, you can move it to the hideout so you don't get the reminder on the big Spy-button that a spy needs directions. That is the only reason I can think of.
     
  20. Cicerosaurus

    Cicerosaurus Emperor

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    I tried moving a spy to the hideout and was told it couldn't do anything there, but wouldn't get killed. But who cares- they get replaced. Unless you want to protect a top ranking spy. However that seems pretty pointless- having a top agent and not using them.
     

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