espionage

[hoopmatch]

What good is espionage in C3? I spend 3,000 gold or more to do something "safely" and get caught immediately. My money is gone and I have nothing to show for it.

Anybody out there had any success with espionage in C3?

 

[CKS]

I like to plant spies so I can see how many units the other guys have. I don't generally try to steal techs (by the time I get espionage, I am usually the tech leader, as I rarely play above demigod) or carry out other espionage missions.

The chances of completing your mission aren't all that great, even at careful, but there is an article in the war academy that explains how everything works at http://www.civfanatics.com/civ3/strategy/espionage_missions.php

 

[Fiddlin Nero]

Its worth it for seeing the military strength as CKS said and investigating individual cities. The rest of the options cost to much and too often result in war. Sometimes when I have rediculous amounts of money I will never use, I have fun with them.

 

[web25]

i "cheat" sometimes. i will spy in every city and re-start my game. beats wasting all my money.

 

[Rodrig0]

I do it all the time!

By the time I biuld the intelligence agency, I've already switched to communism, so my spies are veterans. So I have more success planting spies. Then, because I can't cash rush, I tend to have a lot of money, 30k or more. And what to do with all that? Propaganda.

First, wait for two civs to be at war. They'll be usually democrats, so I can't use propaganda on them. But as war goes on, they'll try to switch to monarchy or fascism, if they have researched it. I keep an eye on them to see when they're in anarchy. And when they do...

That's when they will be more vulnerable. Some of their conquered cities will be starving to prevent disorder and will have very little population. A progaganda mission on a size 1 city will cost less than 200g. Anarchists, their courthouses destroyed, no culture, and citizens unhappy. The perfect candidates to flip to my side. What could be better than seeing two civs fight, they take the damage and I steal the spoils?

 

[Theov]

I do it all the time!

By the time I biuld the intelligence agency, I've already switched to communism, so my spies are veterans. So I have more success planting spies. Then, because I can't cash rush, I tend to have a lot of money, 30k or more. And what to do with all that? Propaganda.

First, wait for two civs to be at war. They'll be usually democrats, so I can't use propaganda on them. But as war goes on, they'll try to switch to monarchy or fascism, if they have researched it. I keep an eye on them to see when they're in anarchy. And when they do...

That's when they will be more vulnerable. Some of their conquered cities will be starving to prevent disorder and will have very little population. A progaganda mission on a size 1 city will cost less than 200g. Anarchists, their courthouses destroyed, no culture, and citizens unhappy. The perfect candidates to flip to my side. What could be better than seeing two civs fight, they take the damage and I steal the spoils?

Will try this.
I don't use spies a lot, doesn't add too much. Maybe this does.

 

[creamcheese]

There are some really fantastic games in the legendary games thread where stealing plays a big part. I think the first recorded Sid victory has a fair amount of it IIRC.

It is worth it if you steal a monopoly tech and the AIs you can trade it to have tons of cash. You can then easily make a profit despite the risk. Communism helps as well with vet spies.

The espionage missions are highly situation dependent. You shouldn't rely on them but a well timed mission can help.

I use spies like most people to see what units the enemy has.

 

[vmxa]

Stealing is not all that common below DG for me, as you should not be behind at that stage of most game. It is very important at Sid and I find easier than DG to get the steals. It is very useful in massive map like GR and Rat run, especially if AW. It is very useful on CCM at even emporer as there are so many techs and wonders.

I played Tupacs SG a few weeks ago and had to steal many techs and I was thinking at the time about why it seemed so sucessful at Sid. I do not really know, but wondered if it was impacted by how much they spend on units.

BTW I mostly stole at the cheapest (immediate?) for the first 3 or 4 times. Then moved to second cheapest. It was not till later I used the most expensive, when I had more money. It is too short of a sample to really make any inference though.

Propaganda is the one that is a total waste of money for me. Investigation of towns is the main use and sometime very late I steal plans, when it is fairly cheap and they have lost units.

 

[Fergei]

I do it all the time!

By the time I biuld the intelligence agency, I've already switched to communism, so my spies are veterans. So I have more success planting spies. Then, because I can't cash rush, I tend to have a lot of money, 30k or more. And what to do with all that? Propaganda.

First, wait for two civs to be at war. They'll be usually democrats, so I can't use propaganda on them. But as war goes on, they'll try to switch to monarchy or fascism, if they have researched it. I keep an eye on them to see when they're in anarchy. And when they do...

That's when they will be more vulnerable. Some of their conquered cities will be starving to prevent disorder and will have very little population. A progaganda mission on a size 1 city will cost less than 200g. Anarchists, their courthouses destroyed, no culture, and citizens unhappy. The perfect candidates to flip to my side. What could be better than seeing two civs fight, they take the damage and I steal the spoils?

I've never used Espionage. Usually that late in the game if you have the money for espionage you are on course for victory. And if you don't have the money for it, well, it isn't an option and you must try to win some other way. I'm kind of inspired by the post above to revisit things (I like anything that creates alternatives to war and that adds value to culture). I have reviewed the war academy post below.

A Study of Espionage Missions - CivFanatics

[SIZE=5][b]Prices:[/b][/SIZE][u]Parameters:[/u] dist - distance from actual city or capital to your nearest city pop - size of actual city or capital level - level of settlement, 1 for town, 2 for city and 3 for metropol opp_cult - opponents culture your_cult - your culture techs - number of...

www.civfanatics.com

I've a few questions, with apologies if any of these have easy/obvious answers. I've not yet got back into the swing of Civ3 after a break this year so my knowledge of the editor is reduced.

1) does the AI ever carry out espionage, and if so, are they remotely effective with it? (personally I've never seen them do it, assuming I would get notifications if they failed against me)

2) I see in the war academy post that there are different espionage variables for different government types when it comes to propaganda. Is there any setting in the editor that impacts on these variables?

3) if I create new government type from scratch, will it be assigned any of these variables about government type susceptibility to propoganda? If so, is it possible for me to work those out?

4) if I made the intelligence agency available far earlier would that potentially break the game in terms of balance? (given lower culture levels earlier in the game, although I assume the cost of espionage would be unchanged, thereby massively reducing its viability and usage)

5) what are the mechanisms for spies gaining experience (other than Communism) and is there anything I can do in the basic editor to modify this (make gaining experience easier).

6) does the AI government type impact on the cost of missions other than propaganda? If not, is there anything in the basic editor that would impact on the cost of missions?

Thanks in advance for any assistance.

 

[justanick]

2) I see in the war academy post that there are different espionage variables for different government types when it comes to propaganda. Is there any setting in the editor that impacts on these variables?

In the government section you can set the values. Same ist true for new government types.

5) what are the mechanisms for spies gaining experience (other than Communism) and is there anything I can do in the basic editor to modify this (make gaining experience easier).

They donnot gain experience, they have it due to the government. It can also be edited in the goverment section.

6) does the AI government type impact on the cost of missions other than propaganda? If not, is there anything in the basic editor that would impact on the cost of missions?

The cost per attempt should remain the same. Veteran spies have higher chances, therefore the effective costs are lower.

 

[Fergei]

Apologies, I see in the editor we can toggle the base cost of diplomat and spy missions. Also the thread below suggests the AI does use espionage when funds allow, but possibly cheats so it only attempts it when success is guaranteed (in which case we would never be notified of any of their spying efforts). Time to get tinkering.

Does the AI ever use Espionage/Diplomats?

So far after 3 games i have never witnessed the AI using either of these to steal plans or technology from me... in fact i have only ever had one civ create an embassy with me..!? BAsically the price for diplomacy is far too expensive to begin with, which might explain the lack of...

forums.civfanatics.com

 

[Civinator]

In my CCM games I frequently received messages that the AI unsuccessfully tried to plant a spy or that my military plans were stolen (so the AI civs don´t need this information).

 

[tjs282]

In my CCM games I frequently received messages that the AI unsuccessfully tried to plant a spy or that my military plans were stolen (so the AI civs don´t need this information).

That happens in the base-game too, but generally only when there's a runaway AI who's acquired All The Gold^TM.

Playing usually at Emp/DG, I've also occasionally had my towns get hit with sabotage or propaganda.

 

[WeirdoJoker]

Playing usually at Emp/DG, I've also occasionally had my towns get hit with sabotage or propaganda.

I've occasionally seen a failed spy attempt by the AI; and of course the occasional town flip. But how can you tell if you've been hit with sabotage or propaganda?

 

[tjs282]

But how can you tell if you've been hit with sabotage or propaganda?

You get a pop-up notice appearing above the town during the interturn (similar to the WLTKD pop-ups, IIRC) — and after the interturn, you will find that the attacked town has lost shields from its production-box, or its unhappy citizens will be complaining about their confusion over the propaganda surrounding your regime, respectively.

 

[Fergei]

Excellent. Good to know it happens with the AI. I've halved the cost of most of the espionage missions and introduced it with Navigation (I'd argue 10% of colonialism was subjugating the local population with power, then 90% of it was about maintaining control via divide and conquer, propaganda, intelligence etc as fictionalised in Kipling's book Kim about colonial activity in India and Afghanistan).

It's a bit of a stretch but if it's an optional tech in the mid-Industrial era that requires pretty heavy financing then it's no surprise a lot of people haven't used it or seen it used against them. The fact in vanilla that so many avoid much or any anarchy in the late game (staying in Republic) probably greatly reduces the AI use against humans too.

I wonder if the AI is engaged in espionage regularly against other AI (who can drop into anarchy regularly in the late game, making them susceptible to espionage). This would explain why we can see so much AI dog-piling in the late game (exposed espionage leading to war declaration?). I'll have to look and see if a lot of late game war declarations take place when an AI is in anarchy.

 

[tjs282]

I'll have to look and see if a lot of late game war declarations take place when an AI is in anarchy.

My belief is that Industrial/Modern AI-initiated (world) wars are primarily caused not by failed Espionage missions, but rather by MPPs:
(1) MPPS appear to be misvalued in the game-code — usually the stronger of the 2 Civs is required to pay for them but the price is nonetheless usually very low relative to the potential cost (even when one potential signatory is already at war, an MPP may still have a [much] lower per-turn cost than an MA) — but the effect on Attitude-improvement is very strong (making the AIs very eager to sign them)
(2) the Civ3 AI apparently does not understand how MPPs 'work': first of all, existing MPPs seem to have very little (if any) deterrent effect on potential AI-aggression; and AI-LeaderA apparently has no problem signing MPPs with both AI-LeaderB and AI-LeaderC, even when the latter are "bitter enemies" (i.e. Furious with each other), and hence very likely to go to war with each other (again) in the future

 

[Fergei]

My belief is that Industrial/Modern AI-initiated (world) wars are primarily caused not by failed Espionage missions, but rather by MPPs:
(1) MPPS appear to be misvalued in the game-code — usually the stronger of the 2 Civs is required to pay for them but the price is nonetheless usually very low relative to the potential cost (even when one potential signatory is already at war, an MPP may still have a [much] lower per-turn cost than an MA) — but the effect on Attitude-improvement is very strong (making the AIs very eager to sign them)
(2) the Civ3 AI apparently does not understand how MPPs 'work': first of all, existing MPPs seem to have very little (if any) deterrent effect on potential AI-aggression; and AI-LeaderA apparently has no problem signing MPPs with both AI-LeaderB and AI-LeaderC, even when the latter are "bitter enemies" (i.e. Furious with each other), and hence very likely to go to war with each other (again) in the future

But with a MPP dog-pile would I not be seeing war declarations on the same turn? I have a feeling an MPP war declaration can be delayed by at least one turn sometimes though (perhaps when the MPP partner loses its first unit in the new war)?

Just trying to think of a way of to differentiate between causes of war.

 

[tjs282]

But with a MPP dog-pile would I not be seeing war declarations on the same turn? I have a feeling an MPP war declaration can be delayed by at least one turn sometimes though (perhaps when the MPP partner loses its first unit in the new war)?

MPPs are triggered when any unit or tile, which is owned by and located within the borders of an MPP-signatory, suffers any kind of attack (including land/ air/ sea bombardment, or ZoC-damage).

So unless they already had units within striking-range of their opponent, antagonists who are widely separated (e.g. in opposite hemispheres) wouldn't necessarily trigger MPPs on the same turn as one of them declared war, or was declared upon.

And depending on who declared, and who had the MPP, the play-order may also result in an MPP being triggered on the turn after a trigger-event occurred.

 

[Fergei]

What a difference making espionage cheaper and earlier makes! All sorts of pop-up messages I'd never seen before in many hundreds of hours of play. I've had lots of games where the AI has had bottomless sums of money and yet I've never seen them try to plant a spy. I was strangely delighted to get a pop-up saying a city I'd culture flipped had become victim to propaganda (but not saying from which Civ).

The biggest unforeseen benefit is that it gives you a hint of which seemingly benign AIs might particularly dislike you (in addition to whether they are Cautious, Polite or Furious). The two Civs that kept trying to plant spies on me during peacetime were (uncoincidentally?) the ones that later declared war on me, and I thought I was on good terms with them. I think this is healthy realism and can understandably make you more vigilant with certain Civs when they start marching across your territory.

I think i'll move the tech even earlier to follow on from Printing Press to rationalise the 'propaganda' spy task. I'll stick with half price spy tasks since only 2 out of 15 Civs seemed to be using espionage on me (i.e. it wasn't becoming stupidly commonplace, with perhaps Civs not prioritising an Intelligence Agency???).

Yet again, tweaking with the settings makes things feel like an entirely new game with more sophisticated and varied AI. My eyes are opened to a completely different set of attacking/defensive options that I barely knew existed. Brilliant!