Estonia the worst human rights abuser of EU

Estonian citizenship laws are unreasonable not because there is something wrong with requirement to know state language to become citizen. The problem is that significant portion of people living there have "non-citizen" status, have less rights, in fact being people of second grade in their own country.
Russia DOES NOT EQUAL to Estonia. It is not THEIR country until they get a citizenship, until then minorities may live and work here, but are not equal to citizens of Estonia.

Sorry for not sending Russian speaking population away from our country if they do not want Estonian citizenship(for whatever reason) but want to continue working here

Interesting quote
migration and Nationality Act (INA).
Generally -- very generally -- you may not become a naturalized U.S. citizen unless you:

1. Are at least 18 years old and a lawful permanent resident ("green card" holder);
2. Have resided continuously in the United States, having been lawfully admitted for permanent residence, for five years immediately preceding the date you filed your application for naturalization, or
3. Have, after having been removed from conditional permanent resident status, based upon your marriage to a U.S. citizen, having resided in the United States for one year after the date the condition was removed;
4. Have resided continuously in the United States at all times after your application to the time and date of your admission for citizenship;
5. Have, during all periods of time referred to above, been and still are a person of good moral character;
6. Have no outstanding deportation or removal order and no pending deportation or removal proceeding;
7. Have the ability to read, write, speak, and understand simple words and phrases in English;
8. Have knowledge and understanding of the fundamentals of U.S. history and government;
9. Are attached to, and can support, the principles of the U.S. Constitution and can swear allegiance to the United States.
Quote from here.

So getting citizenship is almost same as in US.

Follow that up with this - interesting read about working in US while not being a US citizen
 
I was just answering that comment bout the historical language. No need to get so touchy.

The population spoke Finno-Ugric dialects which are now standardised under the name Estonian. They didn't speak a Slavic tongue and their culture is different enough. Languages also make out political spheres and they're also a link to a people's culture. That's why people don't just deem it as just a mere mode of communication. I cannot literally translate when speaking a foreign language.
Besides, the fact that English is widespread is a result of imperialism and also some kind of nationalism of it own. It became standardised before they decided to spread it, just like every language that attains this specific level (administrative, media and common language). So is the standardisation of Russian (based on the Moscow dialect and leveled all Eastern Slavic dialects in Russia during the Soviet era thanks to the media, which is a good thing I might add).
Why should English and Russian be allowed to become standardized and Estonian not? Why should this make Estonians have accepted Russian unquestioningly without being forced upon them against their will? If German linguists didn't standardize it, why says Estonian wouldn't standardize their language themselves?

In my country I also could just as well have switched to French. It seems that the descendants of the Frenchified (formerly dialect-speaking) population has a different culture than the still Dutch-speaking population does. How curious is that? All in less than hundred years for most of these assimilated people when talking about the lower class. Despite this Dutch is standardised officially since the 18th century after the example of the success of L'Académie française with the French language. Very still, some unofficial Standard Dutch started developing in the late Middle Ages, but it really started to attain a body since the 16th century (they also looked up a lot from the Germans, who on their turn took a lot from Latin; the Romans also took a lot from the Greeks, by the way!).
Standard languages are indeed somehow a bit artificial, but very still embodiments of a mentality, a culture, a history, etc... This is why we don't just replace our language by French, German or English, not even nowadays. Nobody knows how important English would remain anyway.
By the way, did you know that Spanish wast standardised officially one century before French was? Nowadays French has more prestige, but that doesn't mean that François Villon wrote in patois! He also wrote in Standard French, but an unofficial variant.
 
I am glad that I was able to spark your interest. :D
The collection is indeed interesting.
And there is one book which can probably be classified as Estonian literature of XVIII century.

Well, getting rid of their "non-citizen" status is totally in their own hands. Well over hundred thousand have managed...
Some people just can't do it. No matter whether they want or not. And they are not illegal immigrants, they were born in Estonia or moved there legally before 1990. You may not like Soviet actions or policies, but these people are not responsible for them either.

I understand that learning second language is not bad, it actually may give many people advantages over those who know only one in such country as Estonia.

And yes, the situation is unique in Europe, but I don't think Estonia can be considered responsible for creating the situation.
Estonia can be considered responsible for not fixing this situation and keeping it for years. Not to mention, to fix the situation, it was not necessary to make Russian second state or even official language, though it would be nice. It would be enough to grant citizenship for all inhabitants of Estonia in 1990-1991.
And there are many good examples how to handle language issues with minorities - such as Finland and Kazakhstan.

I have read precisely that: innonimatu cast an aspersion on the fact that Estonian is the historical language of Estonia, in order to suggest that Russian ought to have equal privileges on account of Estonian's relative lack of history. That quite clearly suggests that Russian is somehow superior on account of its relatively rich cultural background.
I don't know what innonimatu exactly meant, but lack of history of Estonian language and (pretty much) absense of Estonian literature before XIX century seems to be true. Nowhere I suggested that Russian must have equal privileges because it's anyhow "superior".

Therefore, I say again that this is all irrelevant to the matter in hand, and you and innonimatu bringing it up is not suitable in the context of a discussion of whether Estonia's citizenship laws are reasonable or not.
You may say this again several times, or pay attention to what I'm actually bringing up.
 
Russia DOES NOT EQUAL to Estonia. It is not THEIR country until they get a citizenship, until then minorities may live and work here, but are not equal to citizens of Estonia.
That's the problem, exactly.
No matter that ethnic Russians were born in Estonia or lived there for decades, they are considered as second grade people by "real Estonians". And Estonian law supports such things.
 
And why should Estonian law not support such things? I fail to see why Estonia should accept Russians as citizens. They're not considered second-grade by Estonians; they're just considered by Estonians not to be Estonians, which is quite true, because they aren't really Estonians, because they bear none of the hallmarks of Estonianness, the most important of which is the Estonian language.

If they want to be Estonian, they should behave like Estonians and speak Estonian, and if they don't want to be Estonian, they shouldn't be looking to be citizens of Estonia.
 
In Finland there is also a Swedish population that used to 'colonize' the Finnish population. Nowadays all Finns have to undergo mandatory Swedish courses in their schools and the Swedish-speaking mandatory Finnish. Both don't like it, but the best way to create harmony is to show interest in each other's culture. When one community completely lives isolated and only shows disregard for the other one, it obviously creates tension. There are no 'perfect' solutions. In Ireland everyone is obligated to learn Irish Gaelic, while most just speak Hiberno-English. Not sure how popular it is. I doubt it is, though it's some 'nationalist' link to the past of Ireland). ;)
This can be particularly hard when one culture if significantly smaller (a problem which is less present in Switzerland, not entirely true, because Rumantsch is very well preserved, but I think that's because they're "lucky" to be surrounded by a Germanic culture). It requires you to learn appreciate the smaller things of live. You might be surprised how rich the culture is.

I guess mandatory Russian and mandatory Estonian is the only solution, but I know that's not easy to enforce and I just know it would make this for both communities very unpopular.
 
I understand that learning second language is not bad, it actually may give many people advantages over those who know only one in such country as Estonia.
Actually, it works exactly as that. Young people fluent in both Estonian and Russian are the most sought-after group in the job market. Most of such people are of Russian origin nowadays.
Estonia can be considered responsible for not fixing this situation and keeping it for years. Not to mention, to fix the situation, it was not necessary to make Russian second state or even official language, though it would be nice. It would be enough to grant citizenship for all inhabitants of Estonia in 1990-1991.
Well, granting them citizenship will change only two things: it will enable them to vote in parliamentary elections and travel freely inside EU (while losing ability to travel freely into Russia; a reason why many have opted not to take Estonian citizenship) - and I was under impression that original grievances brought about in this thread were about neither of those things. It ain't going to eliminate the disadvantages they face on the job market, for example.

I will add that the coercive language policy is mostly justified by the wish to avoid creation of two separate, ostracized communities. Policymakers (and I) believe that ability and necessity to communicate will ultimately bind people together better than shared citizenship - especially one which was bestowed upon them automatically, without any input of their own.
And why should Estonian law not support such things? I fail to see why Estonia should accept Russians as citizens. They're not considered second-grade by Estonians; they're just considered by Estonians not to be Estonians, which is quite true, because they aren't really Estonians, because they bear none of the hallmarks of Estonianness, the most important of which is the Estonian language.

If they want to be Estonian, they should behave like Estonians and speak Estonian, and if they don't want to be Estonian, they shouldn't be looking to be citizens of Estonia.
Very well put. I will only add that in order to become Estonian as you described it, it is of course not necessary to shed one's Russian identity/heritage.
 
And why should Estonian law not support such things?
Because it creates the situation when we have hundreds of thousands of people who are non-citizens of any country - and don't have rights which people suppose to have. (Hundreds of thousands together with Latvian)

They're not considered second-grade by Estonians; they're just considered by Estonians not to be Estonians, which is quite true, because they aren't really Estonians, because they bear none of the hallmarks of Estonianness, the most important of which is the Estonian language.
They are de-facto people of second grade. In their country, where many of them were born.
Because they don't have the same rights which ethnic Estonians have.
Why in Canada or Russia (or USSR) people receive citizenship automatically if they were born there, no matter whether they can speak state language or not?
 
Because they don't have the same rights which ethnic Estonians have.
As I said:
Granting them citizenship will change only two things: it will enable them to vote in parliamentary elections and travel freely inside EU (while losing ability to travel freely into Russia).
Also, not being citizens they are not required to undergo conscription and are excluded from some positions in public service. I don't think this is overly dramatic, as demonstrated by the fact, that after 20 years there are still people who have happily remained non-citizens.

Why Russia people receive citizenship automatically if they were born there, no matter whether they can speak state language or not?
Not according to wiki they don't?
Citizenship by birth rules generally follow jus sanguinis principle, though a child can be recognized as a Russian citizen in several special cases as well:

* neither of his parents, who are permanent residents of Russia, is a Russian citizen, but the child is born in Russia and does not obtain any other citizenship
* the child is found on the territory of Russia and his parents are unknown for more than 6 months.
I shall add that children of stateless persons who are currently born in Estonia automatically become citizens if at least one of their parents requests this.
 
Because it creates the situation when we have hundreds of thousands of people who are non-citizens of any country - and don't have rights which people suppose to have. (Hundreds of thousands together with Latvian)

They're still not Estonian. They should apply for Russian citizenship and behave like Russians, or they should apply for Estonian citizenship and behave like Estonians.

They are de-facto people of second grade. In their country, where many of them were born.

It is not their country if they don't adhere to that country's social norms. They are within Estonia without ever being accepted by the Estonian people, and the Estonian people has no responsibility for them. They are de facto people of second grade in only the same sense that if you dance in a hospital you will not be treated with the same respect as someone who is using the hospital for what it's meant for. Estonia is a country for the activity of being Estonian in, and Russia is a country for the activity of being Russian in.

Why in Canada or Russia (or USSR) people receive citizenship automatically if they were born there, no matter whether they can speak state language or not?

That is irrelevant; what two countries do is irrelevant to what the rest should do. Libya is a dictatorship; does that mean we should all be dictatorships? Anyway, I understand that large numbers of countries aside from Estonia have no such law. If you are a British child of an illegal immigrant, you are not a citizen, if I understand correctly.

Now that isn't to say that it wouldn't be generous of Estonia to recognise Russians as citizens, but, in my opinion, that does not mean that Estonia should have to.
 
As I said:
Granting them citizenship will change only two things: it will enable them to vote in parliamentary elections and travel freely inside EU (while losing ability to travel freely into Russia).
Not only that - they can't vote in elections of local authorities (which is important) and also can't work in state departments and do some other types of work:
http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Неграж...F_.D0.B2_.D0.BF.D1.80.D0.B0.D0.B2.D0.B0.D1.85

Not according to wiki they don't?
What I meant is that in USSR you could speak only Estonian, not Russian, and get citizenship without problems. As in modern Russia with Tatars, for example.

They're still not Estonian. They should apply for Russian citizenship and behave like Russians, or they should apply for Estonian citizenship and behave like Estonians.
Who can define what behavior is Estonian and what not? Only ethnic Estonians are allowed to?
What about Russians who lived there since XIX century and earlier?
What about other people who lived and worked there whole their life?
Why behavior of Yakut or Chukchi in Russia is considered Russian enough, behavior of Estonian in USSR was considered Soviet enough to grant them rights of citizens, but behavior of Russian in Estonia is alien?

It is not their country if they don't adhere to that country's social norms. They are within Estonia without ever being accepted by the Estonian people, and the Estonian people has no responsibility for them.
They lived and worked in the country for long time (many of them - for all their life) and didn't violate any law when moved there. They are not accepted by ethnic majority, not by Estonian people.
 
Who can define what behavior is Estonian and what not? Only ethnic Estonians are allowed to?

The Estonian majority is quite welcome to, like any majority in any country. Every civilised country's majority sets its laws and accepted social norms.

What about Russians who lived there since XIX century and earlier?

They are still Russians, not Estonians. Having settled there on imperial principles, with their intention being to colonise Estonia, they should have reformed themselves or removed themselves when Estonia was no longer under Russian rule.

Why behavior of Yakut or Chukchi in Russia is considered Russian enough, behavior of Estonian in USSR was considered Soviet enough to grant them rights of citizens, but behavior of Russian in Estonia is alien?

Because they haven't yet demanded or received independence, and so Russia has a duty to respect their traditions. That is utterly different. As I said before, I wouldn't expect Russia to grant citizenship to monoglot Greeks within its territory.

They lived and worked in the country for long time (many of them - for all their life) and didn't violate any law when moved there. They are not accepted by ethnic majority, not by Estonian people.

That's Russia's fault for conquering Estonia, and the Russian people are responsible for the Russian inhabitants of Estonia. The Estonian people of Estonia are not responsible. The Russian government has a responsibility, of course, to allow Russians in Estonia to return to Russia. Individually, of course each Russian who colonised Estonia was not responsible, but collectively they were, and ethnic Estonians were not even remotely responsible for Russian colonisation of their land. At least, I don't know that they were; if I'm factually wrong there, please tell me how.
 
Not only that - they can't vote in elections of local authorities.
They can, although there is a restriction in that they must have been residents in that particular municipality for 5 years.
Несмотря на то, что неграждане имеют право голосовать на выборах местных самоуправлений, это право ограничено 5-летним цензом оседлости на территории данного местного самоуправления
EDIT: As for the jobs they can not hold, we can probably agree that it would not be possible to work as a notary, bailiff or barrister anyway, without perfect command of Estonian.
They are still Russians, not Estonians. Having settled there on imperial principles, with their intention being to colonise Estonia, they should have reformed themselves or removed themselves when Estonia was no longer under Russian rule.
Actually, most Russians who lived in Estonia since XIX century and earlier were Old Believers, who had settled here to escape religious persecution in Russia. They (and therefore their descendants) received citizenship with all other inhabitants of Estonia, when we became independent in 1918.
 
It seems like you're advocating racism here. The majority is allowed to establish what "behavior" they want and people must act like Estonians. It's sad that Russians dominated Estonia in the past but that's not the fault of the people alive now. Estonia only has a little over a million people, are you ready to lose 25% of your population?
 
It is not racism at all. Ethnic Russians who understand Estonian are fine, aren't they? It's not an ethnic matter, merely a matter of adhering to established social norms.
 
The Estonian majority is quite welcome to, like any majority in any country. Every civilised country's majority sets its laws and accepted social norms.
Majority can make wrong decisions - especially in regards to ethnic groups which are not belong to that majority. What if American white majority will decide to force blacks to pass additional exam for getting citizenship?

Not to mention that Russian minority in Estonia couldn't even participate in making decisions about citizenship laws.

They are still Russians, not Estonians. Having settled there on imperial principles, with their intention being to colonise Estonia, they should have reformed themselves or removed themselves when Estonia was no longer under Russian rule.
Am I understanding you correctly - Russians, inhabitants of modern Estonia, intentionally settled there to colonize the country? And they, with their children, are collectively responsible for it, basing on fact that they can't speak Estonian?

Because they haven't yet demanded or received independence, and so Russia has a duty to respect their traditions. That is utterly different. As I said before, I wouldn't expect Russia to grant citizenship to monoglot Greeks within its territory.
Why Russia has to respect traditions of 200+ ethnic groups living on Russian territory, but Estonia doesn't have to respect traditions of more than 30% of its inhabitants?

That's Russia's fault for conquering Estonia, and the Russian people are responsible for the Russian inhabitants of Estonia. The Estonian people of Estonia are not responsible.
For which invasion, Estonian Russians must suffer, for that one which happened in XVIII century, or for Stalin's recapturing 70 years ago?
 
Red_elk, now you are just getting unreasonable and obstinate.
Might we simply not agree that:
- the "suffering" of stateless persons in Estonia is actually not that terrible and the whole talk about "second-grade" citizens is mostly emotional?
- the problem is solving itself at reasonable pace, as the number of non-citizens has reduced from over 30% to just below 8% today?
 
Red_elk, now you are just getting unreasonable and obstinate.
Might we simply not agree that:
- the "suffering" of stateless persons in Estonia is actually not that terrible and the whole talk about "second-grade" citizens is mostly emotional?
- the problem is solving itself at reasonable pace, as the number of non-citizens has reduced from over 30% to just below 8% today?

I agree with you here.
About "suffering" - pay attention to the message I was answering to, especially about Russians responsible for "colonization", etc.

My general point is that problem of non-citizens exists and current Estonian laws about citizenship are unjust to Russian-speaking minority.
 
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