Estonia the worst human rights abuser of EU

[Gelion]

Actually, Belgium consists of three communities. It has one monolingual Dutch-speaking region, Flanders, one monolingual French-speaking Wallonia (minus the East Cantons which are monolingual German-speaking). In some towns there are facilities for French-speaking, Dutch-speaking and German-speaking. Very still there is a nuance. There are still many tension about French speaking who refuse to learn Dutch and still live in Flanders in hopes of annexing those municipalities. Why this aggressive stance? Contrary to Switzerland Belgium is not a 'real nation' but a combination of different ones who are actually quite hostile to one another (and I have friends from the other community, doesn't help to get along politically/ none of them are emotionally attached to Belgium, and one of them wants to have the country split and to join France, a minority, but as of last years not a rarity anymore because we're still in a huge political crisis for years without end).
In Switzerland there are three main languages: German, French and Italian. Also a minority of Rumantsch speaker who are protected (quite strictly I might add; the German-speaking children living there are taught in it). Also, in Switzerland no community seeks to aggressively annex other town nor do they treat the other community's language as 'that of the enemy'. Switzerland is a real stable country and a nation, whilst Belgium is likely to split in the future (as politicians act to it; as the francophone media at least is assuming, the Dutch-speaking one is too closed-minded sadly...) Belgium is not a stable country mate...

I assume that I can conclude from your post that what makes a nation exist is not a common language, but a desire to respect each other and live in harmony with your neighbour even if they are a people of different ethnic and linguistic background.

In the case of Estonia is about many Russian-speakers who are glad to learn Estonian, and others who refuse learning it because they deem it inferiour, so they seek excuses to not have to learn it. This creates an atmosphere of mistrust, because just like in Belgium it could lead to the other group abusing their granted right and still remain monoglots 'out of principle' and eventually try to assimilate the locals (of course not without accusing them of it themselves, with the usual 'fascist' remarks). Imperialism pur sang versus protectionism.

I think the issue here is politics not languages. Russian population was offended by the descision of Estonian authorities not to grant them citizenship due to their ethnic origin (this IIRC did not happen anywhere else in USSR, just the Baltic states). Thus, if you, as an ethnic Russian, take the test you'd agree to this offense and discrimination. The issue of speaking your monther tongue is secondary to this question, but also very important politically.

 

[Danielion]

I assume that I can conclude from your post that what makes a nation exist is not a common language, but a desire to respect each other and live in harmony with your neighbour even if they are a people of different ethnic and linguistic background.

Exactly. That also includes me. Past grudges are easily forgotten usually. But Belgium has become so messed up that it's hardly possible to make it 'a potential nation' anymore; I fear for the worst while I used to be more optimistic not long ago.

I know for one that such grudges exist in Finland. Some Finns are still mad at Swedes their disdain for their culture and their past imperialist intends. Nowadays every Swedish-speaking Finn has to learn Finnish and every Finnish-speaking Swedish. Many dislike it, but the situation seems stable enough. I don't think separatists are big there. I think the Russians in Estonia somehow compare, but the problems Estonia has known are still fresher as the USSR existed still not long ago. Finland has a longer history in these matters.

I think the issue here is politics not languages. Russian population was offended by the descision of Estonian authorities not to grant them citizenship due to their ethnic origin (this IIRC did not happen anywhere else in USSR, just the Baltic states). Thus, if you, as an ethnic Russian, take the test you'd agree to this offense and discrimination. The issue of speaking your monther tongue is secondary to this question, but also very important politically.

Well, it has an historical reason too. Estonians all learned Russian, whilst the Russian remained turned inside their shells. I think all the fuss is about this. I don't know about the situation, but it does exists in some countries that the minority group seeks to expand in influence and destroy the other one.
Also, even if the population was granted schools in their native language, it doesn't mean they were treated equally. In Belgium they also needed facilities for Dutch-speaking (called 'Flemish'-speaking just to divide the language); but of course only primary schools and only outside of the cities and only in Flanders. Didn't prevent attempts to Frenchify the population.
If Estonians were granted schools in Estonian doesn't mean they were treated decently.

How solve this? I think such situations need some years to develop if it gets settled. It's very easy to do on paper, but there are also groups that have far from noble intentions. As you said, it's about politics. Switzerland and Finland are blessed by having a stable relationship among its different groups, whilst Estonia still struggles with old problems that aren't gone yet. Yes, the Russians aren't granted equal rights as of now, but this is mainly due to the fact that some political groups who have some nostalgia toward 'better times' (not for the Estonian-speaking of course) makes it harder to have a good believe in a successful integration.

 

[Gelion]

Exactly. That also includes me. Past grudges are easily forgotten usually. But Belgium has become so messed up that it's hardly possible to make it 'a potential nation' anymore; I fear for the worst while I used to be more optimistic not long ago.

I know for one that such grudges exist in Finland. Some Finns are still mad at Swedes their disdain for their culture and their past imperialist intends. Nowadays every Swedish-speaking Finn has to learn Finnish and every Finnish-speaking Swedish. Many dislike it, but the situation seems stable enough. I don't think separatist are big there. I think the Russians in Estonia somehow compare, but the problems Estonia has known are still fresher as the USSR existed still not long ago. Finland has a longer history in these matters.

I bolded the part where I think you are wrong. Sweedish is a minority langauge and thus is not obligatory in all parts of Finland. Yes, both nations are not at ease with each other (like in many, MANY places), but they live together in peace. Its as good as it can get and this is the goal that we are trying to achieve. Generally agree with everything else you said.

Well, it has an historical reason too. Estonians all learned Russian, whilst the Russian remained turned inside their shells.

Estonians all learned Russian? I doubt it! Sure they had to adapt, but I doubt they all learned their second national language. I'll summarise my post with an anecdote from the 90's later...

I think all the fuss is about this. I don't know about the situation, but it does exists in some countries that the minority group seeks to expand in influence and destroy the other one.
Also, even if the population was granted schools in their native language, it doesn't mean they were treated equally. In Belgium they also needed facilities for Dutch-speaking (called 'Flemish'-speaking just to divide the language); but of course only primary schools and only outside of the cities and only in Flanders. Didn't prevent attempts to Frenchify the population.
If Estonians were granted schools in Estonian doesn't mean they were treated decently.

I doubt they were treated more indecently than other nationalities in USSR. innonimatu has already developed points about schools and langauge policies...

How solve this? I think such need some years to develop if it gets settled. It's very easy to do on paper, but there are also groups that have far from noble intentions. As you said, it's about politics. Switzerland and Finland are blessed by having a stable relationship among its different groups, whilst Estonia still struggles with old problems that aren't gone yet. Yes, the Russians aren't granted equal rights as of now, but this is mainly due to the fact that some political groups who have some nostalgia toward 'better times' (not for the Estonian-speaking of course).

I bolded the part that is the whole argument. Estonia is a part of European Community, but somehow does not live up to its standards. So, we are trying to change that

Here's what I want to summarise this situation with:

After Estonian independance a Russian walks into a shop and asks an Estonian salesman something in really bad Estonian.
The salesman says: Pleash! Shpeak in Rushn. I unnderstand everything.
The customer replies: For fifty years we have listened to your Russian, now listen to our Estonian!

Ze end

Spoiler original in Russian :

Эстония. Заходит покупатель-русский в магазин. За прилавком стоит продавщица-эстонка. Покупатель начинает на ломаном эстонском объяснять, чего он хочет.

Продавщица:
- Посалуйста, коворитте по-русски, я все поннимаю.
Покупатель:
- Мы пятьдесят лет слушали ваш русский, теперь вы послушайте наш эстонский.

 

[Danielion]

I bolded the part where I think you are wrong. Sweedish is a minority langauge and thus is not obligatory in all parts of Finland. Yes, both nations are not at ease with each other (like in many, MANY places), but they live together in peace. Its as good as it can get and this is the goal that we are trying to achieve. Generally agree with everything else you said.

I meant proper Finns, the Finnish-speaking Finns in other words. I accidentally typed in Swedes. No, Finnish indeed isn't official in Sweden as for as I know.

Estonians all learned Russian? I doubt it! Sure they had to adapt, but I doubt they all learned their second national language. I'll summarise my post with an anecdote from the 90's later...

A Russian friend of mine (over his 30s) also said that their Russian was sub-par during the Soviet era. Probably true. I only doubt you wouldn't receive Russian lessons when you're a resident in the Soviet Union (the biggest language).
Now I know that Russian isn't the easiest language around (neither is Estonian I guess), but it helps to have media.

I bolded the part that is the whole argument. Estonia is a part of European Community, but somehow does not live up to its standards. So, we are trying to change that

Personally I don't know enough facts to be able to really judge everything, but I find this thread interesting. I think situations as these happen everywhere in Europe and it's our weakness as a continent, in my opinion. I have to admire these countries who have stabilized the situation.
With the current politicians I don't see Belgium attaining this, but all is possible.

After Estonian independance a Russian walks into a shop and asks an Estonian salesman something in really bad Estonian.
The salesman says: Pleash! Shpeak in Rushn. I unnderstand everything.
The customer replies: For fifty years we have listened to your Russian, now listen to our Estonian!

Sometimes it happens over here also. Sadly, Flemish aren't really proud of their language and often when they hear one French word slipping out they tend to switch to poor French. Very annoying. Also when your Dutch isn't that perfect they also tend to directly switch to English, also Dutch people have this. Maybe you have heard/read about this. They're just not proud enough of their language and feel as if it be 'impolite' to use your native language with strangers.
I personally don't see any problems speaking Dutch outside Flanders and I gladly speak French when needed, unless a Francophone lives here and is of the younger generation (but I live too far North for such encounters). Of course many Franchophone Belgians, especially outside of Brussels tend to be quite monoglot and even don't manage to speak English... They sadly have a bad educational system which I sincerely hope they'll improve overtime (still bad excuse for not speaking a foreign language, be it even rudimentary, anno 2010 though).
Also, in the German-speaking part of Belgium some Germans refuse to speak French to Francophones comparable to your Estonian-Russian encounter, but it goes a little differently. I will send the joke in French (I have read that one in Dutch before, but that's years ago and I rather copy-paste) and translate it to English.

A German who visits Wallonia stops in front of two guys waiting for their bus.
„ Entschuldigen, bitte, sprechen Sie Deutsch ? “ he asks.
The two Walloon look at him in silence. „ Spreekt u misschien Nederlands ? “ The two don't even make the slightest response.... The Germans tries again:
„ Sorry, do you speak English ? “ The twosome continues at staring at him confusedly. „ Parlare italiano ? “ No response. „ ¿ Hablan ustedes Español ? “ Still nothing.
The German gives up, makes a frowny face and leaves.
The first Walloon to the other one: „ Don't you think that we should learn at least one foreign language ? “
- „ Why ? “ replies the other „This guy even knows five and look at how useless it turned out for him! “

Spoiler French version :

Un Allemand qui visite la Wallonie s'arrête à coté de deux types qui attendent un bus. "Entschuldigen, bitte, sprechen Sie Deutsch ? " demande-t-il.
Les deux Wallons le regardent en silence. "Spreekt u misschien Nederlands ?" Les deux Wallons ne bougent pas... L'Allemand essaie alors
Sorry, do you speak English ?" Les deux autres continuent à le regarder. "Parlare Italiano ?" Pas de réponse. " Hablan ustedes Espanol ?" Toujours rien. L'Allemand hoche alors la tête d'un air dégoûté et s'en va.
Le premier Wallon dit alors à l'autre : " Tu ne crois pas qu'on devrait quand même apprendre une langue étrangère ? " "Pourquoi ?", répond l'autre "ce type en connaissait cinq et ça ne lui a servi à rien !" ...

 

[Gelion]

Heard that a while ago (in different context, guess which one? ) Thanks! You are absolutely right, Europe has to solve these problems to become what they want to become.

Here's another one before sleep

A man is drowning off the coast of Odessa. He cries "Help me!" in English.
A passer-by asked another one: "Who is he, what is he saying?"
A guy replies: "Thats our Izya. When the whole of Odessa was learning how to swim he was learning English."

 

[spryllino]

Belgium is entirely different. They actually are composed of two separate linguistic groups, and, most importantly, they are somewhat exceptional in being separate largely because of religion and not because of ethnicity. Belgium is quite clearly a severe oddity.

None of that refutes the fact that the concept of Estonian citizenship is based on nationalism, whatever American citizenship or Belgian citizenship is based on. To give Russians Estonian citizenship does not make sense when these Russians are not being Estonian at all; i.e. they don't speak Estonian.

As for the Swedes in Finland, they have their rights because the Finns are in this respect kinder that the Estonians. They did not, in my opinion, have an obligation to give the Swedes citizenship.

I am not about to read the entirety of that document, Gelion, but I should very much hope that somewhere it allows provision for removing illegal immigrants from the country, as most countries have such a thing as illegal immigration in their law. The Russians in Estonia are little but illegal immigrants.

 

[wolfigor]

International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights
Article 27
In those States in which ethnic, religious or linguistic minorities exist, persons belonging to such minorities shall not be denied the right, in community with the other members of their group, to enjoy their own culture, to profess and practise their own religion, or to use their own language.

I made bold a part of the document you quoted, that brings some context: a minority group has the right to use its own language/religion/culture with other members of their own group.
This article does not mean that all the country must support multiple official languages.
Coming to Russians in Estonia, I don't think anybody forbid to speak russian language in their community.
In my reading of what you posted, Estonia do respects the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights.

Russia accepts double citizenship.

As far as I know, it doesn't accept it officially (pretty much they don't care, it's a "don't ask, don't tell" policy) at least with those countries that don't have a bilateral agreement.
However Estonia does not accept dual citizenship and does not have a bilateral agreement with Russia.
Effectively to accept Estonian citizenship they should renounce their Russian citizenship.
Similarly getting Russian citizenship leads to renounce the Estonian one.

 

[Gabryel Karolin]

As for the Swedes in Finland, they have their rights because the Finns are in this respect kinder that the Estonians. They did not, in my opinion, have an obligation to give the Swedes citizenship.

Well, they had co-existed peacefully in a single country for 800 years before the Russians took the eastern part and then released it and called it Finland. IMO not comparable with Estonia/Russia.

 

[Moonbat]

There weren't many Swedes in Finland in 1809 but there were a lot of Finns who spoke Swedish, I think. I don't care if a person speaks Finnish, Swedish, Russian, Estonian, Somali, Arabic or whatever as their first langugage, they can still be considered as Finnish as anyone else. Unfortunately there's a lot of racism here and quite a few don't agree with my views. Many think that only a white skinned person can be a Finn, not Africans. It's disgusting. And they don't see themselves as racists, just "critical of immigration". Discussing with such people can be really frustrating on the intertubes forums. Nationalism is irrational sillyness.

 

[Yeekim]

Just out of curiosity here's the definition of "regional or minority languages" according to European Charter for Regional or Minority Languages (that Estonia has not ratified, Russia and most progressive Europe did ):

Article 1 – Definitions
For the purposes of this Charter: "regional or minority languages" means languages that are: traditionally used within a given territory of a State by nationals of that State who form a group numerically smaller than the rest of the State's population; and different from the official language(s) of that State.

I bolded the important part for you...

I do not know how far "traditionally" goes back in time. This is what lawyers get paid big money for. However, it can be argued that Russian has been spoken in Estonia for three centuries (on par with two centuries of German) and its native speakers still exist today in a given country. I would say that the situation is much the same as with Swedish in Finland, where it has been spoken for centuries, is the language of a former occupying power and it is an officially recognsised MINORITY LANGUAGE. I don't understand the difference between Russians in Estonia and Swedes in Finland, except that Russians don't enjoy the same rights.

When both Finland and Estonia became independent in 1918, they both granted citizenship to all individuals living on their territory. This included Swedes in Finland and Russians in Estonia -and descendants of these people still enjoy their respective citizenships. Now, after USSR unlawfully occupied/annexed Estonia in 1940, it started to settle its own civilian population here (in violation of Art 49 of Fourth Geneva Convention it had ratified, I might add)

Spoiler :

Art. 49. ...The Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies.

Quite obviously, all the people who had settled here between 1940 and 1991did so unlawfully and without due consent of Estonian state and people, i.e. they were illegal aliens. That is the difference between Russian-speaking minority of Estonia and Swedish-speaking minority in Finland. Any more questions?

From where I stand, the descision to make most Russian people as "aliens" and non-citizens violates the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights.

There was never "a decision to make must Russian people aliens". They were aliens from the moment they unlawfully entered Estonia. However, to recognize the fact that their personal guilt in this act may have been negligible, they received residence permits alongside with possibility to acquire Estonian citizenship in simplified manner.

Russian population was offended by the descision of Estonian authorities not to grant them citizenship due to their ethnic origin

As demonstrated above, this is not true. Ethnic origin had absolutely nothing to do with this.

 

[Gabryel Karolin]

There weren't many Swedes in Finland in 1809 but there were a lot of Finns who spoke Swedish, I think.

And what exactly is the difference between a Swede and a Finn? Especially along the Baltic sea coastlines, due to internal migrations during the almost 1000-year period when we were a single country, there is little or no difference except for the language. Afaik at one point something like 20% of the people living in what is now Finland spoke Swedish as their first language.

I don't care if a person speaks Finnish, Swedish, Russian, Estonian, Somali, Arabic or whatever as their first langugage, they can still be considered as Finnish as anyone else. Unfortunately there's a lot of racism here and quite a few don't agree with my views. Many think that only a white skinned person can be a Finn, not Africans. It's disgusting. And they don't see themselves as racists, just "critical of immigration". Discussing with such people can be really frustrating on the intertubes forums. Nationalism is irrational sillyness.

Ok.

 

[Moonbat]

And what exactly is the difference between a Swede and a Finn? Especially along the Baltic sea coastlines, due to internal migrations during the almost 1000-year period when we were a single country, there is little or no difference except for the language. Afaik at one point something like 20% of the people living in what is now Finland spoke Swedish as their first language.

There isn't much of a difference. My point was that they were Swedish-speaking Finns not Swedes in 1809 and still are. Calling Swedish-speaking Finns Swedes instead of Finns might be considered offensive. There are many derogatory terms used by the silly nationalists that involve calling them Swedes, like "coastal Swedes". In a free Western country people should be allowed to speak any language they like and still be considered a true citizen of that country, in my opinion. This should apply for Estonia as well.

 

[Cull]

In a free Western country people should be allowed to speak any language they like and still be considered a true citizen of that country, in my opinion. This should apply for Estonia as well.

So the US isn't a free Western country.

 

[Northen Wolf]

In a free Western country people should be allowed to speak any language they like and still be considered a true citizen of that country, in my opinion. This should apply for Estonia as well.

It does apply, Russians speak Russian within their community, there are Russian-only Newspapers and TV for those who prefer to speak/listen to Russian at home... Just they cannot use Russian (a minority language) in governmental institutes and their work market access is limited by the fact ,that they do not speak language that 80% of their (potential) customers use.


Of course, we blame Estonians for not learning Russian Language and making it (main?) official language, so those poor and miserable minority workers would not have to suffer under discrimination and racism.

 

[Verbose]

There isn't much of a difference. My point was that they were Swedish-speaking Finns not Swedes in 1809 and still are. Calling Swedish-speaking Finns Swedes instead of Finns might be considered offensive. There are many derogatory terms used by the silly nationalists that involve calling them Swedes, like "coastal Swedes". In a free Western country people should be allowed to speak any language they like and still be considered a true citizen of that country, in my opinion. This should apply for Estonia as well.

Isn't that complicated a just a bit by, at least historically a number of these Swedish-speaking Finns self-identifying as Swedes? The history of Swedish-Finnish relations in Finland is horribly convoluted after all.

 

[Yeekim]

Isn't that complicated a just a bit by, at least historically a number of these Swedish-speaking Finns self-identifying as Swedes? The history of Swedish-Finnish relations in Finland is horribly convoluted after all.

Indeed... that is also the first time I've heard that "coastal Swedes" can be considered a derogatory term.