Eternal Damnation

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Unicorny, Feb 20, 2015.

  1. Borachio

    Borachio Way past lunacy

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    Link to video.

    I can't get over this video. I'm really not sure what he's on about. But it must be something.
     
  2. warpus

    warpus In pork I trust

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    I didn't say that I believe in anything that exists outside of the observable universe.

    The point is that we have no idea what exists outside of it - so it is not correct to say that the apparent creation of the observable universe contradicts the law of preservation of energy.

    You have to look at the system as a whole - and we aren't, we're just looking at the observable part of it. If you only looked at the Earth you'd conclude that the law of conservation of energy is broken too - but once you realize that energy is coming from the sun - you realize that the law isn't being broken at all.
     
  3. Puck Nutty

    Puck Nutty Prince

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    The point I was trying to make is that God knows what you are going to do before you are even born. Therefore, God knew I was going to become an Atheist before he created me. He knew Jeffery Dahmer was going to murder and cannibalize people before he created him. He knew that no matter what tests or revelations he provided, the outcome was never going to change.

    He knows the outcome beforehand, but still punishes people for going against his will. As El Machinae asked, why create someone you know is going to fail, only to have to condemn them forever?
     
  4. Domen

    Domen Misico dux Vandalorum

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    https://mctfr.psych.umn.edu/research/UM research.html

    ===========================

    Nope. Unless you are talking about the Calvinist God. :p The rest of Christians and Jews have free will granted from God.

    Well, God is also not observable. But scientists can look only at the observable part. The rest is a matter of faith / beliefs.

    Eternal damnation is perhaps just very long, not really eternal.
     
  5. Borachio

    Borachio Way past lunacy

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    I agree that twin studies are remarkably powerful.

    I don't know of any which investigate the effects of a criminal environment on twins.
     
  6. Domen

    Domen Misico dux Vandalorum

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    Maybe Off-Topic, but it always bothers me why people who are strong proponents of atheism are so often the same people who strongly oppose the existence of any biological / innate genetic differences between peoples, groups of peoples, ethnic groups, races, sexes, etc. The same people who believe everything is inside the brain argue that upbringing > genes. How can you be so naive ??? It must be some kind of an agreed ideological convention, or cheating yourselves in the name of a PC idea. The only way all humans can be equal is through soul in front of God. If God and souls don't exist then there is no equality, other than conventional (like equal rights or equality before the law, which is still partly fictional since when you have more money, you can get a better lawyer, etc.).
     
  7. Borachio

    Borachio Way past lunacy

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    First of all I don't consider myself an atheist, nor would I be unwilling to accept the existence of the soul if you presented me with any evidence for it.

    And I don't know why you say this. It doesn't seem to logically follow that if God and souls don't exist then there is no equality.

    Surely, our equality derives from our intrinsic worth as persons. Not as a result of notions of disembodied consciousness or pan-dimensional beings.
     
  8. warpus

    warpus In pork I trust

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    Sure, but either way it's not scientific to say that the universe contradicts conservation of energy laws. We don't know either way.
     
  9. Domen

    Domen Misico dux Vandalorum

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    If a person is nothing more than a collection of cells then what is the source of this intrinsic worth? Of course it is our accepted convention. The Nazis for instance did not accept this convention. Technically many of Nazi criminals did not break any paragraphs, either of international or domestic Nazi German law.

    They were sentenced based on natural law, but this law is also a product of our brain cells - apparently.
     
  10. Borachio

    Borachio Way past lunacy

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    I'm going to go out on a limb here, and say I believe the Nazis were wrong.
     
  11. Domen

    Domen Misico dux Vandalorum

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  12. Unicorny

    Unicorny Warlord

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    Nope.

    Presuppositions are not up for debate; take'em or leave'em. The concept of infinity is beyond the grasp of finite beings such as us; therefore, I see no point in indulging in a discourse regarding it. Think of an infinite God being infinite in His own dimension and yet separate of His creation - the universe, Hell, Heaven, anything.

    Singularities/infinity can exist in higher dimension (beyond the 7th dimension)



    Link to video.

    Link to video.
     
  13. Puck Nutty

    Puck Nutty Prince

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    Well, I'm talking about the God we were taught about back in the day. If that's the Calvinist version, then OK. They don't burden 10 year olds with such distinctions and I'll admit that I don't spend much time researching all the various doctrines to know which is which.

    Still, it's hard to rationalize a fair and loving God with a being who intentionally sets someone up for failure and the punishes them for it, even if for an instant. And believe me, some Christians truly believe this to be the case.
     
  14. Domen

    Domen Misico dux Vandalorum

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    However, I don't think that anyone is set up for failure, some people just have it harder not to fail.

    Perhaps their "scale of failure" is different, as well as God takes into account their increased "difficulty level".

    Well, I guess it is their failure if they believe this to be the case (I think this belief is popular among Calvinists).
     
  15. Borachio

    Borachio Way past lunacy

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    Well, I don't know how to make it clearer.

    Activity of the brain is a material thing, so all our imaginings are material in as much as they are activities of the brain. But not everything that we imagine is real: it doesn't necessarily correspond to a real thing out there in the world.

    A unicorn is immaterial in reality, but our notion of a unicorn is real because it's a physical material activity of the brain. But it's only real in as much as it's an activity in the brain. Similarly for loads of abstract things. Our notion of justice is real since it's also a physical material activity of the brain. But there's no such thing as justice out there in the world. And to suppose that there's something not existing in the world but still existing means that it would (if it existed which I don't think it does, but someone like Plato might say it does) be immaterial.

    I'm beginning to doubt whether I'm making any sense, myself, now.

    I don't see why you don't understand me. It's just hard materialism, imo.

    I'm going to give up now.
     
  16. Domen

    Domen Misico dux Vandalorum

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    I've watched these two videos. So it seems that the Eleventh Dimension cannot exist, as the Tenth Dimension = absolutely everything?

    Well, now I understand you, I'm just not sure if I completely agree with this.
     
  17. Arakhor

    Arakhor Dremora Courtier Super Moderator

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    He didn't explain anything of the sort. He gave his reasons (at length) why he thought this was the case, many of which he managed to discredit with his own arguments. He then accused everyone else of intellectual dishonesty for not being convinced.
     
  18. Borachio

    Borachio Way past lunacy

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    That's something of a relief! I was beginning to think I was losing it. More completely than usual.
     
  19. El_Machinae

    El_Machinae Colour vision since 2018 Retired Moderator

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    The OP assumed an omniscient god. Now, like I said, it's hard to square the idea of an omniscient god with Free Will, but we can just say we hand-wave it and accept the premise.

    But, this still doesn't create a logical contradiction with the idea of only creating winners. Each person created can still freely choose, it's just that they freely chose the successful route.
    It might be. It squares with the idea of any transgression being temporary in nature. But there's still the question of "what is the point?". If damnation is long, but followed by annihilation, then there's no intrinsic point to the damnation. No one benefits from the torture. It's positing a god that creates something that doesn't add to the net good.
    Well, there's no intrinsic worth, in many ways. But this doesn't mean worth doesn't exist. Worth exists within the neurons of people. How do you measure worth? Well, you measure it based on how much people want it. The mind values itself. Other people value the mind. There's an irreplacable amount of information contained within every person's mind.

    Sure, it's hard to measure, but minds value themselves. The gives them inherent worth, since there's someone who values it.
     
  20. warpus

    warpus In pork I trust

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    And why shouldn't we value human life and human intelligence? It seems fairly unique as well, at least in this part of the 'verse.
     

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