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Eternal War: milking a defeated enemy

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by Le Roi Soleil, Sep 26, 2012.

  1. Le Roi Soleil

    Le Roi Soleil Warlord

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    I have recently stumbled upon an interesting strategy for dealing with defeated enemies in early wars. This is an offshoot of the common strategy of taking an enemy's capital and leaving him with one small city in order to avoid the diplomatic penalty of exterminating a civ. Basically, the strategy goes like this:

    - reduce your enemy down to his smallest city.
    - if possible, throw down a citadel that gets your borders to within two tiles of the city.
    - do not raze his tiles. Let him grow as much as possible with that single city.

    ...now here's the important part:

    - never make a peace treaty. Use the city as an XP pinata for your ranged units, and as a free source of workers.

    I have had a lot of success using this strategy. I say to not raze the enemy's tiles because a humbled enemy will still try to win the game, will continue to produce workers and settlers whenever it can. These, you simply steal, use and delete when they are no longer useful.

    Eternal war serves the dual purpose of not allowing a conquered enemy to annoyingly re-expand (which they will do), getting a free stream of workers and settlers (especially good if you conquer him early), and having free target practice for your ranged units to build up xp during periods of peace. Getting a citadel (if you have a GG to spare) up close to his city is helpful because it allows your units the extra healing when they fortify, which means they can hang around in range of the city for a long time and soak up xp. Your downtrodden enemy will take so long to tech that whatever single ranged unit he can field in the city won't be a meaningful threat (although that unit will also earn a ton of xp, so be careful).

    You do need to manage the city's growth a bit. You want your enemy to have enough production to be able to build those workers and settlers, but not enough to try anything tricky. But of course, razing food tiles and forcing starvation is an easy way to keep the city's size under control if it looks like it's growing too much. This is obviously somewhat map/situation dependent, and works best on civs which your civ has completely enveloped (meaning that they are geographically isolated such that no other civ can come and conquer their last city), but when the situation is right, I have yet to find any drawbacks to this strategy. There is no diplo hit that I know of for continuing a war across millenia so long as you don't knock over any more cities or destroy the civ, and the benefits that you might gain from making peace (small amount of gold) are much smaller than what you get out of continued oppression.

    It's an evil strategy, but it seems to be a winning one.
     
  2. Mesix

    Mesix One of Porg

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    I think you take a diplo hit every time you turn down a peace offering. Even if you don't get the big penalty from eliminating the enemy civ from the game, you will still take a penalty from any civs who are friends of the underdog on the map.
     
  3. Le Roi Soleil

    Le Roi Soleil Warlord

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    I have never noticed any diplomatic problems coming from this strategy, but then again, I only tend to do it when I have a civilization encircled early in the game (either the first or second civ I conquer). It may be that the reason I am not taking diplo hits for continuing war is that the civ I'm picking on hasn't had time to make any friends, and remains geographically (and thus politically) isolated for the rest of the game.

    If what you say is correct, that would basically narrow this strategy down to only being viable in the way that I tend to use it, and not applicable to later conquests, where free workers are less important, anyway.
     
  4. PibbZ

    PibbZ Paladin

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    I believe this is correct. Maybe not the first peace offering, but people will definitely start to denounce me as a warmonger if I consistently reject them.

    However, I've been using this tactic myself, but I usually take it out on a city state :) It's not as unforgiving to diplomatic relations as doing it with a civ, but still grants tons of XP.

    Im simply in love with Frigates that got Bombardment 1,2,3, Logistics and Range. And when they upgrade to Battleships? Drool :king:
     
  5. Roblord

    Roblord Chieftain

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    I usually accept the peace treaty if they make an offer that matches how badly I'm smacking them around. I rarely accept those ridiculous offers where they want to cede you all their cities except their capitial. At most, I might take a border city touching my territory...but otherwise I let them off with cash and/or luxury resources. I've never noticed any particular hit for refusing peace offers though...
     
  6. Seabastian Civ

    Seabastian Civ King

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    Absolutely. I love picking on an isolated CS. March to his borders, Bully him, Declare war, raze everything, kill everything, rotate units in and out, racking up XP. You can do this three times before the CS all gang up on you, if I remember correctly.

    This is especially good when you're playing a turtle game and you know you're going to need few but highly promoted units for defense later.

    I also don't recall ever seeing a diplo hit for refusing peace. How would one know about this? Is it a "red text" on the diplomacy screen?
     
  7. LostInTime

    LostInTime Warlord

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    Huh? So if they offer outrageous terms and you refuse you get a diplo hit? Would explain a lot of the crappy diplomacy going on actually...
     
  8. patsfan454

    patsfan454 Warlord

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    'Eternal War: milking a defeated enemy'



    I shall refrain from making a comment about palestine.
    Moderator Action: Don't troll around.
    And keep the politics outside of this forum.
     
  9. Dogmouth

    Dogmouth King

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    Wow. Have people verified this? I use OP's strategy whenever I play the Aztecs or take the Honor tree. The only difference is that I allow the enemy to build up units if I'm the Aztecs. Then again, I actually am a warmonger when I take either of these approaches, so maybe I wouldn't notice any change.
     
  10. mintcandy

    mintcandy King

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    Sigh. Hearing this makes me wish even more for the transparent Civ IV style of diplomacy, where the player is actually shown the numeric diplomatic weight of a foreign civilization's opinion of the player's actions.

    Yeah, I typically use this XP milking tactic against City States that declared war on me because they were allied to a foreign civilization that declared war on me.

    If there really is a diplomatic penalty for turning down peace offers, I would imagine there are no diplomatic penalties for maintaining war with a City State for the purposes of XP milking. Why? Because City States never initiate peace talks like civilizations do.

    Also, if I'm in the Renaissance period or beyond, I don't capture their Workers...instead, I target them with my ranged units for experience, but back off when their HP gets low. :p

    One issue I run into with this tactic is that I frequently will batter down a City State's units and city defenses so fast that I will have more units than viable targets to attack.

    Which means that there will often be units waiting around for the City State to heal its defenses and to build more units. :(

    First world civilization problems, I guess. :D
     
  11. OmniPotent42

    OmniPotent42 King

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    Excuse the pun, but this is udder cheesiness.
    I guess it's technically viable, but I don't know any situation where I'd want to do it. Peace is almost always better than war and denouncements. Maybe against militaristic city-states, but surely not against another civ. Better to take them out early before the denouncement train comes into the station.
     
  12. mintcandy

    mintcandy King

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    Psst. "Udder" isn't an adjective synonymous with "absolute". "Utter" is...and "utter cheesiness" isn't a pun. :D
     
  13. Gucumatz

    Gucumatz JS, secretly Rod Serling

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    I can't believe its not udder!

    Sorry couldn't resist
     
  14. Skibbi

    Skibbi Prince

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    I just invade people and if people don't like it, I just improve my defenses and let them come!
     
  15. Le Roi Soleil

    Le Roi Soleil Warlord

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    You might have a point if we actually knew one way or another whether there is a diplomatic penalty for remaining at war in this way. I haven't experienced diplomatic problems from using this tactic, and if there is a diplo penalty, it probably applies only to the states that have diplomatic contact with the victim. At any rate, wiping out a civ carries a much bigger diplo hit, so I can't see any advantage to doing that.
     
  16. Le Roi Soleil

    Le Roi Soleil Warlord

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    I'm trying to give him the benefit of the doubt and assume he was making some sort of joke about milk (and therefore eventually cheese) coming from a cow's udders. I dunno.
     
  17. shaglio

    shaglio The Prince of Dorkness

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    I find this disturbing. Sometimes I’ll play (or at least attempt) a generally peaceful game, but eventually some jerkface (usually Napoleon) will come along and declare war on me. A lot of times said jerkface will either never actually attack me or will send a minimal force that I successfully beat back. Then they’ll approach me with a ridiculous peace treaty where they want me to hand over a large chunk of money, some GPT, and a few cities, even though they never successfully executed the war on me and never took over a single city of mine. I will simply laugh at this nonsense and refuse the lopsided treaty. Does this mean I will take a diplo hit for not giving into their idiotic demands? Even if I never attack them and merely defend my territory? If that’s true, I don’t like it one bit.
     
  18. Dogmouth

    Dogmouth King

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    It does seem a little bit broken that the AI can attack you, make crazy demands, and then YOU get the diplo hit!?! *Brandishes weapon, attacks someone, then complains to police about victim's refusal to give in to demands... police agree and then denounce victim, which leads to denunciation from entire community*
     
  19. Jaybe

    Jaybe civus fanaticus Supporter

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    This is just a personal belief, NOT verified.

    I have a belief that when you 'skip turn' (as opposed to 'heal', 'fortify' or 'alert') one of your units it does not benefit from fortification bonus.
     
  20. loki75

    loki75 Chieftain

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    it probably has to do with the "peace level". From the future patch note, we've learnt there are different peace levels (capitulation and such), and you probably get the (rewarded, if I may write so) warmonger diplo hit if you turn down "peace for peace" or anything else which is beneficial to you.
    You don't get it if you turn down peace offers which are not in your favour. I know this for sure as I have turned down dozens of them in my immortal games without diplo hit.
     

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