Ethics of Power

[Zardnaar]

Generally I don't think it's unethical to seek power in a democracy. What you do with it matters.

Say if Hilary won in 2016 and did absolutely nothing with said power I would argue the USA would still be better off than what we got. By nothing I mean no new bills passed the state of the government is frozen until 2024.

Our last election was 2023 and Labour got voted out for "doing nothing". Incoming government started repealing all sorts of things they actually did. People don't pay attention it seems.

Anyway your thoughts.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

"Doing nothing" is in the eye of the beholder. UCP sycophants here in Alberta yap on that the brief NDP government we had did "nothing" and that's clearly not true. There were some things they did that were very good for some of the people, and some things that I would call common sense but ended up prompting a bunch of farmers to start posting memes about assassinating the NDP premier.

What did she do that they hated so much?

Oh, just a bill about farm safety. Trying to keep farm workers safe, giving them protection and access to legal recourse for accidents or other unsafe situations, and prohibiting farmers' kids from being put in unsafe situations (ie. getting run over or chopped up if they happened to fall and get caught up in machinery).

I ended up unfriending someone on FB with whom I'd been friends with since high school. She married a farmer, had 3 kids, and even though her kids were all grown by the time this bill came out, I think she has grandchildren who would be affected. I found links on her FB page leading to people who wanted to kill the premier, so I figured that if they actually went through with it and the RCMP started following links, I wanted not even an oblique association with that. It's too bad; this is someone with whom I shared high school classes, college classes, we both worked in the theatre, and went to science fiction conventions. I try not to let politics intrude on friendships, but when she started dancing around the edge with people who wanted to commit a political assassination, that crosses a line that's a dealbreaker.

Of course the UCP repealed a lot of what the NDP did, including things they thought the NDP did (or at least spun it that way; I've asked myself if they really are that stupid and had to conclude that yes, they are).

 

[Senethro]

Two degrees of warming is dead as a target for climate change. The far right is making gains all over.

Doing nothing is a form of cowardice and a different kind of losing.

 

[Zardnaar]

Two degrees of warming is dead as a target for climate change. The far right is making gains all over.

Doing nothing is a form of cowardice and a different kind of losing.

It's still an improvement over what you actually got yes/no?

 

[Senethro]

It's still an improvement over what you actually got yes/no?

In the sense that having a boat with 3 leaks instead of 4 is preferable, and that both ways the boat has people in it that believe there is a correct number of leaks.

 

[Angst]

issue is that "doing nothing" never happens (colloquially). the only time when like literally nothing is actually done is during gridlock. the government passes laws all the time. now, whether the passed laws are substantive or not is another question. usually centre liberal policies (like, what a lot of people call left-wing, lol) are actually numerous and affect real people, whether it's cutdowns or grants in specific sectors. it can feel like doing nothing because a 1% tax rate change doesn't feel like anything, a social grant to some community somewhere to build bridges somewhere, and actively doing mass infrastructure repair for example (which is one of the healthiest things you can do within such a system; jobs all over the place, a lot of money into the economy, increases efficiency) is dull. that's pretty much it though, bluntly. real, solid, salt of the earth centre liberal policy is boring, and as such a lot of people just don't pay attention to it.

it ends up with a situation that when stuff is done - which atm is when right wingers slice stuff - people realize, oh, this was something that was done?

it's a problem of media exposure and general education, and guess what, the right is tightening its grip around both globally. the result is what's going on in the states right now.

that said, there's a... disconnect between that and concrete ethics of power. can OP outline whether we're discussing whether nothing happens, or whether this is about breaking laws for the sake of power, etc? it's actually a bit confusing.

 

[Voidwalkin]

Generally I don't think it's unethical to seek power in a democracy. What you do with it matters.

Prolly know I agree. I said so explicitly, in another thread.

I have some problems with purity. You can try to be morally pure, and reduce your relevancy by standing against a majority in opposition, perhaps even becoming irrelevant politically(many are at this point already). If in that state, it kinda dilutes a claim to any moral purity, because people will live with the consequences of irrelevance. Those who try to stay clean end up dirty anyway, though they prefer not to think about it from what I can tell.

I'm not super-thrilled with how popular and pervasive politics as a moral expression is becoming. It seems like religion, and the insertion of this philosophy into something that has, by nature of power, always been(and will always remain) a dirty business.

It's like signing up to be a garbage man, then refusing to allow any of the horsehockey to get on you. Nobody can do their job in those circumstances, and if enough trashmen take that approach, the garbage is gonna pile up, and the town is gonna stink.

 

[amadeus]

What part of this is about ethics?

 

[EvaDK]

The most effective playbook for someone seeking more power, is to make other people think they have none.

I consider ethics one of the bedrocks of character. Something that doesn't change with the wind or season.
Ethics also presume humility and lack of vanity, traits usually absent in those seeking power.

 

[Tee Kay]

Our last election was 2023 and Labour got voted out for "doing nothing". Incoming government started repeating all sorts of things they actually did. People don't pay attention it seems.

What gets you is the gap between expectations and reality

Like Angst said, actually "doing nothing" never happens, but I also disagree that it's a problem of media exposure and lack of education. Or, rather, I believe it's part of the job of the leaders to address those things. If people don't know what you've done, that's a failure of leadership. Accountability and transparency aren't just about your wrongdoings, but also your successes.

In the case of the last NZ Labour Government, I believe they promised a lot but comparatively delivered little, at least very little that people could see, and much of what they did deliver was culturally offensive to a majority of the population.

When a government promises and actually delivers, it's usually rewarded. The tricky part is though is for people to start seeing benefits within the term of government, or to trust that the benefits will start flowing soon. Even then, too many broken promises will sink a government eventually.

 

[Angst]

What gets you is the gap between expectations and reality

Like Angst said, actually "doing nothing" never happens, but I also disagree that it's a problem of media exposure and lack of education. Or, rather, I believe it's part of the job of the leaders to address those things. If people don't know what you've done, that's a failure of leadership. Accountability and transparency aren't just about your wrongdoings, but also your successes.

In the case of the last NZ Labour Government, I believe they promised a lot but comparatively delivered little, at least very little that people could see, and much of what they did deliver was culturally offensive to a majority of the population.

When a government promises and actually delivers, it's usually rewarded. The tricky part is though is for people to start seeing benefits within the term of government, or to trust that the benefits will start flowing soon. Even then, too many broken promises will sink a government eventually.

that's fair. most governments are noticably bad at communicating what they do exactly.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

Pretty much nobody rational in my province believes in government promises anymore. The premier before this one promised not to touch the disability benefit, and then he canceled the increase we were supposed to get. And back in December, the current premier chopped 2/3 of the amount we were supposed to get in the annual cost of living increase.

We know our politicians are basically grifters. Right now the premier and health minister are in hot water because it's finally gone public that the premier accepted a bribe in return for an insane amount of money's worth of shady medical-related contracts. And every time the new health board gets close to finding stuff out and doing something about it, they get fired.

The Canadian media haven't been able to talk to them, because... they've been in Washington, at Trump's "prayer breakfast." There's a forlorn hope that there will be something wrong with their passports and they won't be allowed back into Canada.

 

[Voidwalkin]

it's a problem of media exposure and general education, and guess what, the right is tightening its grip around both globally. the result is what's going on in the states right now.

Disagree.

This message is fine, the messenger is adequate, the audience just doesn't wanna hear it. At least in the Us.

Some major reasons why
1. Economic decline. When people feel their bargaining power stagnate or diminish, long term, it can't really be expected that they're going to be enthusiastic about the system that failed to reverse that decline

2. Social decline. Although not really the fault of liberals wholly, the avg number of friends is down, relationships are down, isolation is up, trust is way down.

3. The much discussed and polarizing values gap. A substantial number of liberals are content to destroy traditional values and norms, with a public hesitant if not opposed.

The three combine to create an audience primed to reject the good governance message, regardless of what they think of its likelihood to actually provide them. The public is primed to reject the message because the messenger lacks both credibility and moral authority, and what sold in the optimism of the post WW2 era has become stale with the accumulated pessimism of, idk, the OPEC embargo of the 70s(I guess that would be the clearest distinguishing point in trendline reversal, but I dunno)

 

[Farm Boy]

A substantial number of liberals are content to destroy traditional values and norms, with a public hesitant if not opposed.

I don't think it's actually this, but they might think it is. It's rent seeking and social control.

It'll sell itself as, say, keeping kids safe(let's just roll with the thread), but it's going to be in reality that your kids can't help you bale hay, the police get powers to inspect to make sure that it isn't happening, and there will be a new reality where you're forced to modify not only how your family works, but pay new monies into a system mandated by force in order to get done what you need to, that was already getting done. Which was always the point. If we bring this south of the border, remember that almost the entirety of federal expansive powers rests on the interpretation that my living in a closed circuit of food production, raising food for only myself to eat from only my hands is by legal definition "interstate commerce" because I can be forced to pay into the system. Disengaging without paying the rent is not allowed. Your work is ours, too. We provide protection, remember?

 

[Zardnaar]

What gets you is the gap between expectations and reality

Like Angst said, actually "doing nothing" never happens, but I also disagree that it's a problem of media exposure and lack of education. Or, rather, I believe it's part of the job of the leaders to address those things. If people don't know what you've done, that's a failure of leadership. Accountability and transparency aren't just about your wrongdoings, but also your successes.

In the case of the last NZ Labour Government, I believe they promised a lot but comparatively delivered little, at least very little that people could see, and much of what they did deliver was culturally offensive to a majority of the population.

When a government promises and actually delivers, it's usually rewarded. The tricky part is though is for people to start seeing benefits within the term of government, or to trust that the benefits will start flowing soon. Even then, too many broken promises will sink a government eventually.

They did lots of little things around the edges you don't notice. They didn't do much vs big issues.

They got destroyed on post covid stuff, house prices, and 3 waters.

 

[Voidwalkin]

I don't think it's actually this, but they might think it is. It's rent seeking and social control.

It'll sell itself as, say, keeping kids safe(let's just roll with the thread), but it's going to be in reality that your kids can't help you bale hay, the police get powers to inspect to make sure that it isn't happening, and there will be a new reality where you're forced to modify not only how your family works, but pay new monies into a system mandated by force in order to get done what you need to, that was already getting done. Which was always the point. If we bring this south of the border, remember that almost the entirety of federal expansive powers rests on the interpretation that my living in a closed circuit of food production, raising food for only myself to eat from only my hands is by legal definition "interstate commerce" because I can be forced to pay into the system. Disengaging without paying the rent is not allowed. Your work is ours, too. We provide protection, remember?

Fair. I mean, I still think there's a values gap, but this is a fair addition. There's an independent spirit in quarters of America that is offended by insistence of piling on further obligations.

 

[Farm Boy]

Whether or not that spirit still breathes, or if it offends Vincent and Anthony's wives, might be your values gap.

 

[Plains-Cow]

I *CULTUREBOMBING LOVE POSTING ON THE FIRST PAGE.

Anyway good political power is when the government does things that I like, and bad political power is when the government does things I don't like.

 

[Angst]

They did lots of little things around the edges you don't notice. They didn't do much vs big issues.

They got destroyed on post covid stuff, house prices, and 3 waters.

could you reiterate how the title of this thread connects to the OP?

 

[Angst]

Disagree.

This message is fine, the messenger is adequate,

the messenger isn't adequate. the difference in media consolidation and entertainment news between the us and europe is ridiculously stark. it's dire when the most thorough mass media analysis of most issues is done by comedy shows. culture war stuff is a big part of it, but most gen x'ers+ still watch the news, where everything is fox or fox lite. and for education, the issue is that a vast swathe of the population has literally no conception of figuring out when someone is just trying to sell something. now, people actually do it a lot; they meet most issues with little trust, find errors in it, and then dismiss it,. they learn the tenets of skepticism and use it to reinforce biases. this is normal. but the situation in the us is that most information distribution is largely monopolized, even if its particularities of messaging are hugely divisive. this behavior is systematically enforced by a few actors that just want to get good advertisement deals.

the audience just doesn't wanna hear it. At least in the Us.

Some major reasons why
1. Economic decline. When people feel their bargaining power stagnate or diminish, long term, it can't really be expected that they're going to be enthusiastic about the system that failed to reverse that decline

the us is still #1 in raw bucks, and most of the economic issues it's facing are due to changes in industry. it sucks that coal and steel is going away/overseas, but the basic approach of modern liberal society is not just to abandon the cities, but to restructure the economy in a way that new sectors can be open for work, even for low-education areas. regardless (and this is the point of media), the right literally funnels more jobs overseas, and the media environment either tells you otherwise, or doesn't correct you. that people don't know what tariffs are until after the election has to be the biggest indicator of bizarre crap like this.

2. Social decline. Although not really the fault of liberals wholly, the avg number of friends is down, relationships are down, isolation is up, trust is way down.

i have no idea what you mean here. i know about the number of issues, but they're mostly divided among vastly different sectors with vastly different problems and solutions. (your post is actually generally a little vague)

3. The much discussed and polarizing values gap. A substantial number of liberals are content to destroy traditional values and norms, with a public hesitant if not opposed.

eh. it's a red herring for people that are chronically online. it's actually not that big a deal to most people. but if you rather don't mind, can we just agree to disagree on this because i don't want this thread to be another "a lot of people yell at voidwalkin over progressivism"-thread.

The three combine to create an audience primed to reject the good governance message, regardless of what they think of its likelihood to actually provide them. The public is primed to reject the message because the messenger lacks both credibility and moral authority, and what sold in the optimism of the post WW2 era has become stale with the accumulated pessimism of, idk, the OPEC embargo of the 70s(I guess that would be the clearest distinguishing point in trendline reversal, but I dunno)

just wanted to not snip this. i do want to say that aspects of what you note have a tremendous influence on the rise of the far right, it's not that i disagree on the particulars. but none of it matters if you don't have access to information. american news have been strange and sucked for as long as i've been alive, regardless of it being "the mainstream media" or not. even if everything was perfect, in this current environment, it would still not reveal itself to the worker.