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[NFP] Ethiopia Update Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by sonicmyst, Jul 13, 2020.

  1. SammyKhalifa

    SammyKhalifa Deity

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    Yeah, I've always felt like ideology-supporters are kind of trying to shoehorn a thing from Civ 5 into a different game. The policy cards, etc. are way more nuanced than the ideologies ever were. I don't think you need a new mechanic for it (though I'm intrigued by what they could do now that they've opened up governor mechanic for other things).
     
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  2. Alexander's Hetaroi

    Alexander's Hetaroi Deity

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    I guess theoretically you could choose between a late game governor whenever you pick your tier 3 government and the bonuses would be different.
    Democratic governor is a hybrid between Amani and Reyna.
    Communist governor is a hybrid between Pingala and Magnus.
    Fascist governor is offensive Victor or Ibrahim with no diplomacy. :mischief:
     
  3. PhoenicianGold

    PhoenicianGold Emperor

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    Agreed. I've also noticed that many of the proposals for ideology are fairly ... abstracted from the board state. I haven't seen anything that would translate well to something physically expressed and able to be interacted with on the map, as befitting Civ's board-game-like structure. By contrast, the policy cards meet this standard quite well, even going so far as to actually mimic aspects of a board game (I wish they had been a tad less literal, but that's a minor quibble).

    This would also make a lot of sense as a softer implementation of "ideologies," since I always thought seven governors felt a bit thin. Secret Societies helped a lot. I also wonder if corporations could interact with the governor system...
     
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  4. Myomoto

    Myomoto Prince

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    Yes, but it's far less fleshed out compared to Civ V, and especially ideological pressure from tourism is a super requested feature.
     
  5. Alexander's Hetaroi

    Alexander's Hetaroi Deity

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    True but that could just be a positive or negative tourism modifier depending on the government you choose.
     
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  6. Myomoto

    Myomoto Prince

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    Ideological pressure affected your global happiness if your current ideology didn't match the dominant one. Dominant ideology being determined by the total amount of tourism generated by Civs with each ideology. If you didn't conform to the dominant ideology, your cities could flip to the dominant Civ's empire.

    This pressure often nessisitates wars to lower another Civ's pressure on you (if you wish to keep the benefits of your ideology). Combined with the large diplomatic penalties/bonuses it would shuffle alliances up thoroughly from the midgame, and usually cause one or two world wars.

    It seems very obvious somehow to implement ideological pressure in VI through the loyalty and amenity systems - probably it could be implemented better than it was in V, even.
     
  7. Alexander's Hetaroi

    Alexander's Hetaroi Deity

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    I can still see that as being part of the loyalty system already in place. If civs have a different government than you they could produce more even more loyalty pressure on your cities if they are more populated than you and are in the range of nine tiles.
    If they implement the ideological governments producing more loyalty pressure combined with tourism modifiers I can see it working but I'm not sure we need a whole new ideological system in place.
     
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  8. acluewithout

    acluewithout Deity

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    Others have already discussed how Ideology could work in Civ VI. You can also see my signature for ideas.

    I think introducing essentially “Civ V Social Policies and Ideological Tenets” into Civ VI would be wrong headed. Instead, I think it’s more about Civ VI T3 and T4 Governments and Governors having more expanded late game mechanics, plus the addition of some sort of “Ideological Pressure” based on tourism that impacts loyalty and or happiness.

    Frankly, I find it really frustrating FXS haven’t gone down this route. The end game doesn’t work, and something around Ideology and related mechanics would help. Moreover, the game seems designed to have expanded roles for late game governments and governors.

    e.g.
    • Governments are already themed around Freedom, Autocracy and Facism, but nothing seems to turn on that at the moment.
    • T3 and T4 Governments each have Unique Policy cards only they can access, but the T3/4 Governments don’t let you access any unique units, wonders, buildings, all of which seem like “low hanging fruit” in terms of design.
    • The existing Governors are all themed around Civ’s Social Policies (eg Magus=Liberty, Amani=Patronage etc), and basically seem like a soft reboot of the Social Policy system (abilities purchased with culture (via gov titles), permanent abilities arranged in trees). But we don’t seem to have a similar implementation of the “advanced” Social Policies, ie Ideological Tenets, e.g. via more advanced ideological themed governors unlocking in the late game.
    • Civ VI has all the underlying game systems that would let FXS implement ideological pressure, e.g. ideological themed governments, tourism, loyalty, a happiness / amenities system, but yet haven’t implemented anything like that.
    Anyway. TL;DR There’s plenty of room for an expanded role for Ideology, and I think some mechanics like that would massively improve governors, the importance of T3 and 4 governments and make the late game interesting. It also wouldn’t bloat the game or otherwise adversely impact the game, because the game is basically set up for something like that. Will FXS do something like that? Well, I wish they would, but who knows...
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2020
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  9. SammyKhalifa

    SammyKhalifa Deity

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    I guess my objection is in creating a new system. Policy cards and/or governors could do anything that a new ideology mechanic could do.
     
  10. PhoenicianGold

    PhoenicianGold Emperor

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    And again, both give the player something discrete and tangible to work with: cards with slots and people that can be placed on the board. Until I see an ideology system that can be physically associated with an object and not just a bunch of numbers or ability trees, I really don't see much reason to add some entirely new ideology layer to the game so much as to expand upon the government and governor system, as @acluewithout has noted here and there.

    Although I think a lot of these ideas are good ideas, the one I really don't want or need is "ideological pressure", since pressure is generally intangible and unfun, and loyalty is already a simplified version of ideological pressure. At this point the only pressure I needed to fill out the big three forms of ideology alongside political ideology (loyalty) and religious ideology (religion) would be identitarian/consumption ideology (corporations and markets), and even that probably isn't necessary because tourism kind of functions as a simplified version of that.
     
  11. acluewithout

    acluewithout Deity

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    Fair enough.

    I think I sort of agree. I'd like to see governments and governors expanded, not necessarily wholesale new mechanics.

    In my head, "Ideological Pressure" wouldn't be an entirely new system really. You'd still just have normal loyalty with population size, happiness and era being still factors. But, at a certina point, your tourism vs neighbours' tourism would be a new factor in determining overall loyalty (where you have selected a different ideological government to your neighbour). So, if you have a different ideology to your neighbour, and more tourism than they do, then you'd exert additional loyalty pressure and vice versa.

    Your current ideological government would also tweak how certain things work for each empire. e.g. maybe buffing / debuffing certain spy missions or giving you different spy missions; maybe changing what things you can do to buff happiness and or loyalty. Stuff like that. So, if you're a Fascist Civ next to a Democratic Civ, and the Democratic Civ has more tourism than you and so is exerting more loyalty pressure, you'd have a few options. You could increase your tourism; you could increase your loyalty (either just as you normally would, or perhaps Facisim gives you additional loyalty options, e.g. maybe encampments give you more loyalty, or being at war increases loyalty temporarily); or you run spy missions / use governors, pass certain WC resolutions (if they come up) that shift loyalty; or, yeah, you have to change to democracy.

    I think if it worked like that, it wouldn't really be a new system. Instead, you'd just reach a point in the game, and the existing loyalty system would expand.
     
  12. leandrombraz

    leandrombraz Emperor

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    I just got the achievement for winning with Apocalypse Mode enabled without apocalypse mode enabled. :crazyeye:
     
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  13. acluewithout

    acluewithout Deity

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    Sounds like a disaster.
     
  14. Arithmion

    Arithmion Warlord

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    I never played civ 5, but just from my experience playing civ 6, I have noticed that the "Ideology" civic occupies this weird place in the tree with no eureka, blocking everything past it on the tree, almost like the devs were planning to make it super duper important, with spotlights shining down on it from above, "You've just unlocked ideology, prepare for a gamechanger," type of thing. I don't really know what ideologies entailed in civ 5, but in my completely unqualified opinion it looks like they were thinking about adding it to civ 6, then it wound up on the cutting room floor.
     
  15. PhoenicianGold

    PhoenicianGold Emperor

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    They definitely should do something to fix that, even if there's no expansion planned.
     
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  16. bite

    bite Unofficial Civilization Cartographer Moderator

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    Whilst I was waiting for the update announcement, I spent some time writing about by thoughts about Ethiopia and its addition in the game
     

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