ETTT - The ditching out of the lost weight

[Alltriia]

So, I'm starting this thread to discuss and polish our resignation from the group. Doesn't need to be sent right away, but starting to think on it now it's better than later. Also, better sending it after the conquest of the Maveriks island(we really need back-up units and to upgrade defenses).

Can anyone confirm if these are the latest versions of the ETTT(only adding Q and CDZ as the members) and the ASP?

The ETTT:

The ETTT​

The Exclusive Tech-Trading Treaty​

The Exclusive Tech Trading Treaty is the governing treaty of the Exclusive Tech Trading Alliance (ETTA), which is composed of the members of the ETTT.

Section 1. Members of the ETTT

1.1. The AMAZON

1.2. Team Sirius​

Section 2. Addition and Subtraction of Members

2.1. New members may be added by unanimous agreement of all current members.

2.2. A member may be removed by unanimous consent of all other current members.

2.3. A member may be removed at any time if they are proved to have violated any of the terms of this treaty.​

Section 3. Treaty Duration and Cancellation Terms

3.1. The treaty continues indefinitely until it is canceled.

3.2. The treaty can be canceled at any time by the mutual agreement of all members.​

Section 4. Trading Policies

4.1. Members agree to trade freely and generously with all other members.

4.2. Members agree to trade with non-members only with unanimous consent from all other current members.

4.3. Members will be open and forthright about research plans to avoid duplication of effort and ensure rapid progress.

4.4. All technology shall be shared openly, upon request, without regard to beaker value.​

Section 5. Amendments

5.1. A proposed amendment may be submitted by any member. The proposed amendment must be sent to all members.

5.2. A proposed amendment will be adopted upon the agreement of all members.​

The ASP:

The ASP​

The AMAZON-Sirius Pact​

Section 1. Members of the ASP

1.1. Team Sirius

1.2. The AMAZON​

Section 2. Pact Duration and Cancellation Terms

2.1. The pact continues indefinitely until it is canceled.

2.2. The pact cannot be canceled until 1000AD.

2.3. The pact will be canceled if at any time there are no non-member teams left in the game.

2.4. The pact can be canceled by either member if the other member knowingly violates the terms of the pact.​

Section 3. Non Aggression

3.1. Both members agree not to attack each other at any time while this pact is in effect.

3.2. If a third party attacks either one of the members, the other member agrees not give aid to that third party.

3.2.1. Giving aid to a third party includes providing gold, gifting military units, and granting passage to troops.​

3.3. Both members agree to help each other where possible if either of them are engaged in a defensive war.

3.3.1. If either member is engaged in an offensive war against a third party, the other member is not obligated to get involved, although help may be given voluntarily.​

3.4. If the pact is canceled because there are no non-member teams left in the game (Section 2.3) a Non-Aggression Pact will go into effect that will last for 10 turns after the last non-member team is eliminated.​

Section 4. Open Borders

4.1. Both members agree to maintain an Open Borders treaty to facilitate trade and unit movement for the length of this pact.​

Section 5. Resources

5.1. Both members will seek to trade excess resources with the other member first before attempting to trade it to a non-member.

5.1.1. If the other member is unwilling or unable to make a reasonable trade offer the resource may be traded to a non-member.​

Section 6. Sharing Information

6.1. Both members agree to cooperate with complete openness and honesty.
6.2. Neither member will hold back any information which we feel the other member would like to know. This includes but it not limited to all of the following.

6.2.1. Contact with new nations
6.2.2. Important diplomacy with other nations

6.2.3. Positions and strengths of suspicious rival units

6.2.4. Information gained through espionage

6.2.5. Settlers being sent anywhere close to the line running North to South bisecting the mainland area between the two members.​

Section 7. Mutual Technological Advancement

7.1. Both members agree to conduct tech trading honestly and fairly.

7.2. Both members agree to continue to coordinate tech paths to avoid duplicate teching for the length of this pact.

7.3. Both members agree to the terms of the Exclusive Tech-Trading Treaty (ETTT) and agree to remain members while both The ASP and The ETTT are in effect.

7.4. Neither member will vote for the other to be removed from the ETTT.

7.5. Both members agree to seek to add at least one more member to the ETTT (for a total of 3 members) to ensure that both ASP members are not on the outside of a major tech trading alliance.​

Section 7. Religion

7.1. If either member gains a religion in any way while the other member is without a religion, the member with a religion agrees to make an effort to provide the other member with a missionary within a reasonable time limit.​

Section 8. Wonders

8.1. Both members agree be open with each other about plans to build World Wonders, to avoid duplication and the tension that could arise from secretly competing against each other.​

Section 9. Temporary Exceptions

9.1. Temporary exceptions can be made to the terms of the pact with the express agreement of both members. This is meant to allow either member to react to unforeseen circumstances.​

Section 10. Amendments

10.1. A proposed amendment may be submitted by either member.

10.2. A proposed amendment will be adopted upon agreement of both members.
​

My thoughts(from the turn discussion thread):

It's a long shot, but we can always send a message to the other members starting right away with a "The time as come to end the ETTT.".
We could try to point out that:

-There's no point having the ETTT around when on the modern era frontier.
-That the ETTT never was that usefull as Amazon had to go and steal a tech(steel, was't it?) from a poor rival.
-That nobody but us(we did it too, right? ) teched with the ETTT in mind and piled gold instead of working for the ETTT efford.
-That the teching reduntancy that the ETTT was designed to avoid, happened 'constantly'( ).

So, taking into account that all the rules on the treaty woren't followed, it has not the value of the bits it was written on, "...and therefore, as we're also allowed to break a rule in the treaty, we're leaving.".

First draft:

Dear ETTT members,

The time as come for us to leave the ETTT.

Sirius and the Amazons started this enterprise, and it was later expanded to the southern hemisphere to Quatronia and CDZ, with the aim of gaining significant technological advantage over our enemies and we(Sirius) think that it was a major flop for the following reazons:

- Significant technological advantage: This is the main failure even so that the Amazons had to steal Steel from Merlot. This should have not happened as there wore four teams researching against two.

- Pilling gold: Some members chose to have the other members take the burden of research while they would pile gold. This practice happened much more often than it can be described as necessary to "react to unforeseen circumstances".

- Research redundancy: One of the ETTT's goal was to avoid this phenomenon that unfortuantly happened very often.

Sirius siriusly considered the pros and cons and came to the conclusion that the above reasons are more solid than the ETTT itself. Not only that but also as we're at the threshold of the Modern Era, we think that there's not much use on pursuing the technology cooperation.

Think the last sentence should be there?

EDIT:I don't intent to write the letter, just sort of clarify, solidify the points and asking for input. Irgy write much better than me.

 

[BLubmuz]

Amazon stolen Guilds and GP from Merlot, not Steel.
They won't even see that tech.

 

[AlphaShard]

They already have Steel, from Quat, same as us.

Maybe Irgy is right, maybe we can simply say with Mavericks destroyed we no longer need this deal. No need for snakry words then really. Just the facts plain and simple.

 

[BLubmuz]

I agree.
The fact plain and simple. Before we complete next tech, possibly.

If they ask for our reasons, which i doubt, we can tell them.

"they won't even see" is referred to M&M.

 

[Alltriia]

Amazon stolen Guilds and GP from Merlot, not Steel.
They won't even see that tech.

What's GP? Ah, Gunpowder for Musketman.

Maybe Irgy is right, maybe we can simply say with Mavericks destroyed we no longer need this deal. No need for snakry words then really. Just the facts plain and simple.

It adds more weight. I don't see the reasons I used that far fetched. Possibly replacing the Modern Era line with that one?

The fact plain and simple. Before we complete next tech, possibly.

Are we building treasury untill we conquer the Maveriks?

If they ask for our reasons, which i doubt, we can tell them.

I think we should send a letter to the other members fully explaining why are we leaving the treaty. It's cleanner that way, don't you think?

Second draft:

Dear ETTT members,

The time as come for us to leave the ETTT.

Sirius and the Amazons started this enterprise, and it was later expanded to the southern hemisphere to Quatronia and CDZ, with the aim of gaining significant technological advantage over our enemies and we(Sirius) think that it was a major flop for the following reazons:

- Significant technological advantage: This is the main failure even so that the Amazons had to steal Guilds and Gunpowder from Merlot. This should have not happened as there wore four teams researching against two.

- Pilling gold: Some members chose to have the other members take the burden of research while they would pile gold. This practice happened much more often than it can be described as necessary to "react to unforeseen circumstances".

- Research redundancy: One of the ETTT's goal was to avoid this phenomenon that unfortuantly happened very often.

Sirius siriusly considered the pros and cons and came to the conclusion that the above reasons are more solid than the ETTT itself.Not only that but with the Maveriks out of the picture, there's not much use on pursuing the technology cooperation.

 

[AlphaShard]

I didn't say it was far fetched, perhaps just don't need a harsh tone is all. Still we can list our reasoning as just not needing the deal anymore. I guess it's up to Irgy if he's our diplomat who will send the letter, I think he's working on a draft himself.

Well I did rush buy two things (a forge and EI over on Bode) If we can't use the whip we can use the rush. Though I know we shouldn't rush everything.

 

[Alltriia]

I see your point. Some are indeed harsh, but when you choose to let others carry the burden that you yourself also should be carrying, it should be said. But it's superfluous and I've taken it out.

I've also read Irgy's post after I replyed before and asked his help.

Third draft:

Dear ETTT members,

The time as come for us to leave the ETTT.

Sirius and the Amazons started this enterprise, and it was later expanded to the southern hemisphere to Quatronia and CDZ, with the aim of gaining significant technological advantage over our enemies and we(Sirius) think that it was a major flop for the following reazons:

- Significant technological advantage: This is the main failure even so that the Amazons had to steal Guilds and Gunpowder from Merlot. This should have not happened as there wore four teams researching against two.

- Pilling gold: This practice happened much more often than it can be described as necessary to "react to unforeseen circumstances".

- Research redundancy: One of the ETTT's goal was to avoid this phenomenon that unfortuantly happened very often.

Sirius siriusly considered the pros and cons and came to the conclusion that the above reasons are more solid than the ETTT itself. Not only that but with the Maveriks out of the picture, there's not much use on pursuing the technology cooperation.

 

[Irgy]

As I've said Alltriia, it's perfectly good text, but I just don't see the point of sending it. There is no chance in hell of convincing Quatronia and CDZ that they want the ETTT to end, and there's no benefit in telling them why we want it to end. What I'm proposing instead is a message to Amazon explaining what we want. They're the only ones we need to convince, as it is only with them that we have a treaty stating we won't leave the ETTT.

EDIT - and such a message can be seen in the Amazon diplomacy discussion thread.

 

[Alltriia]

I'm not proposing the end of the ETTT. I start with "The time as come for us to leave the ETTT.".
As I said replying to your post on the turn discution thread, to make our way out clean(also, I am curious on their reply). They know they've mooched and everyone playing the game knows what happened and understands what's within the letter(even beetween the lines).

If it's fine, then use it when and if you think it's convenient.