EU expanding its 'sphere of influence,' Russia says

@red elk:

Did you read the info on the atrocities committed by the USSR against the Baltic states before and after WWII (previous page)?

It's not something that should be overlooked.
 
@red elk:

Did you read the info on the atrocities committed by the USSR against the Baltic states before and after WWII (previous page)?

It's not something that should be overlooked.

I stopped reading after words "genocide", "100,000 of people" and "cattle trucks". Too much sh*t on this topic in world media - it's the same kind of stories as 100,000,000 of victims of Stalin's repressions (which is more than half of USSR population).

Accusation in genocide is too serious to be taken into consideration without approval. I can discuss all this, better in separate thread, if you find some sane sources of information. Those you posted look like Baltic nationalistic propaganda, so I considered them as trolling and provocation from you, and ignored.

I'm not going to deny all Soviet crimes against Baltic people.
 
dude, Stalin killed more people than Hitler. Even if that isn't 100,000,000 I'd call him a little nuts

"If supplier and demander didn't come to agreement about the price, is supplier obliged to provide resource to demander?"
Either your economics teacher was really bad or the Russians really don't understand Capitalism. There is always a set market price. Its called the equilibrium point.

As for the hypothetical scenerio, you keep on insisting that the US may install thousands of missiles. Installing thousands of missiles is a hypothetical scenerio because it, well, hasn't happened yet. My point is that a few missiles are not a threat to Russia in the least bit. Even if the US installed thousands of missiles Russia would still not be threatened because of other means of delivering nuclear weapons like submarines.
 
Another reason to get the Turks into the EU is that a "pan-Turanian" EU policy would mean more than 8% of the present Russian population would suddenly become available for the same kind of manipulation.:evil:
"For what profit is it to a man if he gains the whole world, and lose his own soul?"
 
It's 20,000,000 post WWII. Everyone knows this. I've never seen anyone claim otherwise (except deniers).
 
It's 20,000,000 post WWII. Everyone knows this. I've never seen anyone claim otherwise (except deniers).

dude, Stalin killed more people than Hitler. Even if that isn't 100,000,000 I'd call him a little nuts

Could one of you answer, how many political prisoners were executed in the USSR in period of 1932-1953?

"If supplier and demander didn't come to agreement about the price, is supplier obliged to provide resource to demander?"
Either your economics teacher was really bad or the Russians really don't understand Capitalism. There is always a set market price. Its called the equilibrium point.

Russia sells gas to EU for, say, 50$, and both sides agree on this price. Ukraine says, they will only pay 10$, not more. Is Russia obliged to sell gas to Ukraine for 10$ now, or we can sell it to EU for better price?

As for the hypothetical scenerio, you keep on insisting that the US may install thousands of missiles. Installing thousands of missiles is a hypothetical scenerio because it, well, hasn't happened yet. My point is that a few missiles are not a threat to Russia in the least bit. Even if the US installed thousands of missiles Russia would still not be threatened because of other means of delivering nuclear weapons like submarines.

The US withdrawal from ABM treaty and installation of anti-ballistic bases in Europe are against Russian interests. Don't put into my mouth stories about thousands of missiles.
 
"For what profit is it to a man if he gains the whole world, and lose his own soul?"
Well, this is the "What if"-scenario that proceeds from the assumption that the EU has already lost whatever sould it might have possesed.:)
 
dude, Stalin killed more people than Hitler. Even if that isn't 100,000,000 I'd call him a little nuts
.

No, he didnt in fact, and I hate the way this seems to be becoming "Common knowledge" when in fact its completely untrue
 
Most of current estimations based on Cold War era researches, literature works like Solzhenitsyn's "GULAG archipelago" and claims of Khrushev, who vastly exaggerated number of victims. For example, he estimated number of GULAG prisoners in 1953 as 10 millions which is several times higher than real number (about 2.7 millions)

For those who interested in researches, based on Soviet archival evidences, read here

Mainstream published estimates of the total numbers of “victims of repression” in the late 1930s have ranged from Dmitrii Volkogonov's 3.5 million to Ol'ga Shatunovskaia's nearly 20 million. (See Table 1.) The bases for these assessments are unclear in most cases and seem to have come from guesses, rumors, or extrapolations from isolated local observations. As the table shows, the documentable numbers of victims are much smaller.

Turning to executions and custodial deaths in the entire Stalin period, we know that, between 1934 and 1953, 1,053,829 persons died in the camps of the GULAG. We have data to the effect that some 86,582 people perished in prisons between 1939 and 1951. (We do not yet know exactly how many died in labor colonies.) We also know that, between 1930 and 1952-1953, 786,098 “counter-revolutionaries” were executed (or, according to another source, more than 775,866 persons “on cases of the police” and for “political crimes”). Finally, we know that, from 1932 through 1940, 389,521 peasants died in places of “kulak” resettlement. Adding these figures together would produce a total of a little more than 2.3 million, but this can in no way be taken as an exact number. First of all, there is a possible overlap between the numbers given for GULAG camp deaths and “political” executions as well as between the latter and other victims of the 1937-1938 mass purges and perhaps also other categories falling under police jurisdiction. Double-counting would deflate the 2.3 million figure. On the other hand, the 2.3 million does not include several suspected categories of death in custody. It does not include, for example, deaths among deportees during and after the war as well as among categories of exiles other than “kulaks.” Still, we have some reason to believe that the new numbers for GULAG and prison deaths, executions as well as deaths in peasant exile, are likely to bring us within a much narrower range of error than the estimates proposed by the majority of authors who have written on the subject.

Getty, Rittersporn, Zemskov. Victims of the Soviet Penal System in the Pre-War Years: A First Approach on the Basis of Archival Evidence. The American Historical Review, Vol. 98, No. 4 (Oct., 1993)

Others may continue posting numbers based on "everyone knows".
 
GULAGs were not the only way Stalin killed people. Taking that number alone is insufficient.

For examples:
Katyn Massacre (April-May 1940):
Dictionary of 20C World History: 14,000 Polish officers systematically killed. 4,500 bodies discovered by Germans.
30 July 2000 Sunday Telegraph [London]: 15,000 k.
Paul Johnson: 15,000 -- a third at Katyn, the rest in Sov. conc. camps.
Gilbert: 15,000 Polish POWs sent to 3 camps - Starobelsk, Kozelsk, Ostashkov - all killed. 4,400 from Kozelsk killed at Katyn.

Returning Soviet POWs killed after the war:
Harff and Gurr: 500,000 - 1,100,000 repatriated Soviet nationals killed (1943-47)
Harper Collins: 1,000,000 POWs
Davies: 5-6M deaths, screening of repatriates and inhabitants of ex-occupied territory

Soviet soldiers executed:
Richard Overy, Russia's War (1997)
"latest Russian estimates put the figure as high as 158,000 sentenced to be shot."
"442,000 were forced to serve in penal batallions." [These were assigned suicidally dangerous tasks, and the only way out was death or wounds, so figure maybe half dead, half crippled.]
http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat1.htm

In total/general:

Researchers before the 1991 dissolution of the Soviet Union attempting to count the number of people killed under Stalin's regime produced estimates ranging from 3 to 60 million.[71] After the Soviet Union dissolved, evidence from the Soviet archives also became available, containing official records of the execution of approximately 800,000 prisoners under Stalin for either political or criminal offenses, around 1.7 million deaths in the Gulags and some 390,000 deaths during kulak forced resettlement – for a total of about 3 million officially recorded victims in these categories.[72]

The official Soviet archival records do not contain comprehensive figures for some categories of victims, such as the those of ethnic deportations or of German population transfers in the aftermath of WWII.[73] Other notable exclusions from NKVD data on repression deaths include the Katyn massacre, other killings in the newly occupied areas, and the mass shootings of Red Army personnel (deserters and so-called deserters) in 1941. Also, the official statistics on Gulag mortality exclude deaths of prisoners taking place shortly after their release but which resulted from the harsh treatment in the camps.[74] Some historians also believe the official archival figures of the categories that were recorded by Soviet authorities to be unreliable and incomplete.[75][76] In addition to failures regarding comprehensive recordings, as one additional example, Robert Gellately and Simon Sebag-Montefiore argue the many suspects beaten and tortured to death while in "investigative custody" were likely not to have been counted amongst the executed.[8][77]

Historians working after the Soviet Union's dissolution have estimated victim totals ranging from approximately 4 million to nearly 10 million, not including those who died in famines.[78] Russian writer Vadim Erlikman, for example, makes the following estimates: executions, 1.5 million; gulags, 5 million; deportations, 1.7 million out of 7.5 million deported; and POWs and German civilians, 1 million – a total of about 9 million victims of repression.[79]

Some have also included deaths of 6 to 8 million people in the 1932–1933 famine as victims of Stalin's repression. This categorization is controversial however, as historians differ as to whether the famine was a deliberate part of the campaign of repression against kulaks and others, or simply an unintended consequence of the struggle over forced collectivization.[49][80][81]

Accordingly, if famine victims are included, a minimum of around 10 million deaths — 6 million minimum from famine and 4 million minimum from other causes — are attributable to the regime[82], with a number of recent historians suggesting a likely total of around 20 million, citing much higher victim totals from executions, gulags, deportations and other causes.[83] Adding 6–8 million famine victims to Erlikman's estimates above, for example, would yield a total of between 15 and 17 million victims. Researcher Robert Conquest, meanwhile, has revised his original estimate of up to 30 million victims down to 20 million.[84] Others maintain that their earlier higher victim total estimates are correct.[85][86]
wiki
 
For those who interested in researches, based on Soviet archival evidences.
First, pay attention to these parts of your quote:
"the documentable numbers of victims"
and
(We do not yet know exactly how many died in labor colonies.)

Therefore I see your question "Do you know how many political prisoners were executed in Soviet Union between 1932-1953" and raise with "Do you know how many tons of documents have been burned in Soviet archives from 1953 onwards (including under supervision of that same Volkogonov)?

EDIT: I do not claim extensive expertise here, so I won't say that the 20 million figure is necessarily the correct one. I am simply saying, that the real number of victims > documentable number of victims.
 
GULAGs were not the only way Stalin killed people. Taking that number alone is insufficient.

Read the article, it's not about GULAG, it's about all Soviet penal system.

Therefore I see your question "Do you know how many political prisoners were executed in Soviet Union between 1932-1953" and raise with "Do you know how many tons of documents have been burned in Soviet archives from 1953 onwards (including under supervision of that same Volkogonov)?

Nothing was burned, as there were no reasons to do that.
 
Read the article, it's not about GULAG, it's about all Soviet penal system.
Again that is NOT the only way Stalin killed people. Many were simply executed and many more were starved to death.

Stalin killed about 20 million of his own people after WWII. Deal with it.

This is a real disgrace and an example of what happens without a free press and open education system:

In recent years, some in Russia, perhaps in reaction to economic hardship or political instability, have signalled some support for Stalin. Results of a controversial poll taken in 2006 stated that over thirty-five percent of Russians would vote for Stalin if he were still alive.[234][235] In July 2008, Stalin topped at number 2 of the list of most popular figures of the Russian history and culture in the nationwide television project "Name of Russia. Historical Choice 2008" in which 292,220 out of 1,453,390 voted for him.[236] In December 2008 Stalin was voted third in a poll of the greatest Russians (behind Saint Alexander Nevsky and Pyotr Stolypin, one of Nicholas II's prime ministers), leading to accusations that the poll had been rigged in order to prevent him or Lenin being given first place.[237]Also, a new statue of Stalin, along with others who fought against Hitler, is to be erected in Moscow.[238]

That's so pathetic it's almost not disgusting. I pity the Russian public. An industrialized country in the 21st century living in darkness, it's really sad.
 
Under the dictatorship of Joseph Stalin, tens of millions of ordinary individuals were executed or imprisoned in labour camps that were little more than death camps. Perceived political orientation was the key variable in these mass atrocities. But gender played an important role, and in many respects the Purge period of Soviet history can be considered the worst gendercide of the twentieth century.
http://www.gendercide.org/case_stalin.html

This month marks the 75th anniversary of the Ukrainian famine, known as the Holodomor, or death by hunger. [In Ukraine, the official annual commemoration is the fourth Saturday in November]. Many governments, including those of Canada and the United States, have recognized the famine as an act of genocide by Stalin’s regime against Ukrainians.
http://ukraineanalysis.wordpress.co...ath-and-soviet-regime-concealed-for-54-years/

Ironically, however, though the former dictator appears to be enjoying a mini-revival. Actors playing "Uncle Joe" are in serious demand as TV and theatrical productions about the Stalin era flourish and the modern-day Communist party says his crimes were "exaggerated".

The comeback of a man whose bloodied hands are often compared to Adolf Hitler, Pol Pot and Mao Zedong, has alarmed the more liberal wing of Russia's political class. The Soviet Union's last leader Mikhail Gorbachev has warned that neo-Stalinism is on the march again while Russia's first post-Soviet President Boris Yeltsin has said he can't understand why Stalin is still so popular.

Between 30 and 40 per cent of poll respondents regularly rate Stalin's achievements as "positive" and a survey last year named him the most revered Communist leader the USSR produced. Admirers cite his turning the Soviet Union into a superpower, the country's defeat of fascism and the "order" he enforced. According to Mr Gorbachev, Russia is going through a dangerous period.

"We can see what was seen in the 1930s even now," he said earlier this week. "Portraits of Stalin and a renaissance of Stalinism can be observed in the mass media and in theatres. Some attempts are being made to preserve Stalinism and this is very serious."

The total number who died under Stalin's regime is disputed but Western historians put the figure at 20 million.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...o-millions-sent-to-death-in-gulag-466911.html
 
Again that is NOT the only way Stalin killed people. Many were simply executed and many more were starved to death.

Stalin killed about 20 million of his own people after WWII. Deal with it.

This is a real disgrace and an example of what happens without a free press and open education system:

That's so pathetic it's almost not disgusting. I pity the Russian public. An industrialized country in the 21st century living in darkness, it's really sad.

Is this all you can answer to article in American Historical Review from international group of researchers ? :)

You even don't know that most of victims of Stalin repressions were executed before WW2. BTW, number of 800,000 of executed people is huge and clearly shows Stalin as cruel dictator and tyrant.

Do you consider all people died in American prisons last years (from all reasons, like some researchers like to count for the USSR) as victims of Bush regime?
 
Is this all you can answer to article in American Historical Review from international group of researchers ?
I already explained to you that your article is incomplete for our purposes, looking only at Soviet documented deaths within its official penal system.

It's like me claiming that the US is the world's smallest polluter by looking only at sulfur emissions from certain power plants.

I'm not sure if you are aware of the intellectual dishonesty involved in your facade, but it's plainly there.

Do you consider all people died in American prisons last years (from all reasons, like some researchers like to count for the USSR) as victims of Bush regime?
Are you claiming that 99% of the people Stalin incarcerated were guilty of actual crimes?
 
Nothing was burned,
Please, you can't possibly believe that?
as there were no reasons to do that.
Please, you can't possibly be so naive??

According to Gen. Volkogonov, the POW commission resolved many cases since 1992. But many were not because "quite a few documents were destroyed," he wrote.
http://www.powmiaff.org/kremlin.html
or
"I was not properly understood," he said in a recent interview. "The Ministry of Defense also has an intelligence service, which is totally different, and many documents have been destroyed. I only looked through what the K.G.B. had. All I said was that I saw no evidence."
http://www.nytimes.com/1992/12/17/w...op/Reference/Times Topics/Organizations/K/KGB
or
Volkgonov reports that Stalin extracted, and presumably, destroyed the relevant documents on this episode...
http://books.google.com/books?id=PZ...ts=_2ptyeRW1d&sig=jEt45BpArckIuPGPFOKSY7gyg2k or
Colonel General Dmitri Volkogonov was the first person to reveal that Stalin's Kremlin study was also emptied. In 1989 he published the most recent and most detailed biography of Stalin. Unlike previous biographers, he was given access to the secret archives of the Central Committee of the CPSU. Volkogonov reports that despite Stalin's prodigious memory, he took notes of Politburo meetings in a special thick notebook. He also kept personal letters not only from Lenin, but also from Zinoviev, Lev Kamenev, deputy head of the government until 1927, and even from Trotsky.

Volkognov goes on to say that despite strenuous efforts, he could not discover either the notebooks or the letters: "When the safe was opened officially, it was found to be empty, apart from its owner's party card and some insignificant papers". His hypothesis is that it was Beria who destroyed Stalin's personal archives. He claims that he did this even before Stalin died, while the doctors were trying to save his life and while Beria's colleagues were watching at his bedside. He argues that Beria made a dash for the Kremlin: "His hasty departure for the Kremlin was possibly connected with his effort to remove from Stalin's safe documents which might contain instructions about how to deal with him, a last will that might not be so easy to contest, made while Stalin was in full control of his faculties."
http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/story.asp?storyCode=95025&sectioncode=26

On top of this you can add what was simply lost during the war.
 
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