EU expanding its 'sphere of influence,' Russia says

[Ecofarm]

Eco, you are aware you wrote that Stalin killed 20m AFTER WW2, arent you?

I'm including famines, gulags, purges, etc... the whole taco.

 

[Yeekim]

Eco, you are aware you wrote that Stalin killed 20m AFTER WW2, arent you?

Well, this certainly can't be true, since fortunately he croaked mere 8 years after that.
Could easily be total number of victims of Soviet regime during his entire rule, though.

I'm including famines, gulags, purges, etc... the whole taco.

Famines and purges mostly occurred before the war.

 

[Ecofarm]

Well, this certainly can't be true, since fortunately he croaked mere 8 years after that.

Then I could be wrong on the time-frame.

 

[RedRalph]

Then I could be wrong on the time-frame.

Theres no 'could be' about it, this exposes how little you know on the subject when you seem to think the ukranian famine happened post WW2

 

[Ecofarm]

My knowledge is not needed to establish the 20m figure. I provided several citations, including some very itemized links.

I don't know where I got "post-WWII" from. Crap happens

Stalin was undoubtedly a horrible monster and Putin's Russia is glorifying him via control of the press and education. One does not need to be a historian to know this. The whole world, except Russia, knows this.

 

[red_elk]

I already explained to you that your article is incomplete for our purposes, looking only at Soviet documented deaths within its official penal system.

It's like me claiming that the US is the world's smallest polluter by looking only at sulfur emissions from certain power plants.

I'm not sure if you are aware of the intellectual dishonesty involved in your facade, but it's plainly there.

The article gives understanding of scale of repressions. It contains details about victims of GULAG, labor colonies, kulak resettlements and prisons, places where researchers of repressions are mostly referring to. The numbers of 2-3 millions including people died from all reasons, obviously not all of them were repressed unlawfully. And of course, article doesn't include all categories of victims. The main idea is that numbers from archives are by order of magnitude less than most popular estimations.

The number of 20,000,000 cannot be reached even adding victims of famines, which were calculated also on uncertain basis. I'm not even saying that counting famine as repression (???) is absolutely unjustifiable simply because famines happened often in Russia in that time, and in that case each of Russian emperors of XVIII-XIX century would also have hundreds of thousands of "repression" victims.

I consider Stalin as cruel dictator, who is responsible for many deaths, and I feel sorry for innocent people who were unlawfully repressed.

 

[red_elk]

Please, you can't possibly believe that?

Please, you can't possibly be so naive??

I repeat, there were no reasons for people to destroy documents - everything written in archives, were done according to Soviet laws of that time, so people in 1950-1960s had nothing to worry about.

For Volkogonov's claims - again, try reading article from my link above. Somehow the data from "burned" documents magically appeared there.

 

[Yeekim]

I repeat, there were no reasons for people to destroy documents - everything written in archives, were done according to Soviet laws of that time, so people in 1950-1960s had nothing to worry about.

...and those hanged after Nuremberg did everything according to laws of Nazis. Again, please. You are smarter than this.

For Volkogonov's claims - again, try reading article from my link above. Somehow the data from "burned" documents magically appeared there.

So if the head of several Russian archives explicitly claims that "documents have been destroyed" in several occasions, you just ignore this because you know better?
I read your link. Nowhere do these people claim their database is complete. They stress phrase "documentable number", as opposed to "total number".

 

[civhelp121]

"Russia sells gas to EU for, say, 50$, and both sides agree on this price. Ukraine says, they will only pay 10$, not more. Is Russia obliged to sell gas to Ukraine for 10$ now, or we can sell it to EU for better price?"

No one is obliged to do anything. If Ukraine is only willing to buy it at $10 and Russia is willing to sell at that price that is the equlibrium price. If Russia demands more and Ukraine caves in then the new price is the equilibrium price. However if Russia and Ukraine agree to the original 10 dollars and then Russia cuts off gas to Ukraine before the deal ends then that is not market forces at work thats Russian forces at work. Russia should have renegotiated the deal when it ended in order to increase the price.

 

[red_elk]

...and those hanged after Nuremberg did everything according to laws of Nazis. Again, please. You are smarter than this.

And they didn't burn the documents before it became evident that they will be arrested soon.

So if the head of several Russian archives explicitly claims that "documents have been destroyed" in several occasions, you just ignore this because you know better?
I read your link. Nowhere do these people claim their database is complete. They stress phrase "documentable number", as opposed to "total number".

Some documents have been destroyed for different reasons, the ones which were not, giving precise numbers about most of categories of victims. And that numbers are by order of magnitude less than popular beliefs. What you are saying now is "I know, there had to be some papers which documented the rest 17-18 millions of victims which we cannot found."

If you are claiming number of victims 10 times more than archival evidences, you need to back it up with something more serious than "some documents were destroyed" or "everyone knows".

 

[Ecofarm]

I back it up with the consensus of Western historians.

Look it up.

I've already provided multiple citations stating this.

And, for the record, those famines were ON PURPOSE. It was not the 16th century. Next, you'll be claiming that lil Kim's famines are entirely beyond his ablility to mitigate. Or the famines that Saddam oversaw during sanctions that did NOT affect importing food and medicine, and during the oil-for-food program when he sold all the babyfood and milk (except that which was needed for Sunnis) for cash and power.

 

[Yeekim]

And they didn't burn the documents before it became evident that they will be arrested soon.

Nuremberg might have not been best comparison, actually. Try Beria, Abakumov, Yezhov or any other "enemy of the state". They certainly did everything according to laws as well.

If you are claiming number of victims 10 times more than archival evidences, you need to back it up with something more serious than "some documents were destroyed" or "everyone knows".

Turning to executions and custodial deaths in the entire Stalin period, we know that, between 1934 and 1953, 1,053,829 persons died in the camps of the GULAG
We have data to the effect that some 86,582 people perished in prisons between 1939 and 1951
We do not yet know exactly how many died in labor colonies.
We also know that, between 1930 and 1952-1953, 786,098 “counter-revolutionaries” were executed.
Finally, we know that, from 1932 through 1940, 389,521 peasants died in places of “kulak” resettlement.

I do not claim these numbers should be multiplied with figure of 10. I believe we could multiply them with something between 1 and 1,5.

However, these numbers can not be represented as "all victims of Stalin".
You do not have Holodomor victims here, for example. Or those murdered at Katyn. Or did people not die in prisons before 1939?

 

[red_elk]

I back it up with the consensus of Western historians.
Look it up.
I've already provided multiple citations stating this.

Find any article of Western historian, who had access and worked with Soviet archives, and who confirms number of 20,000,000 or at least half of that. I posted one which contains other numbers.

And, for the record, those famines were ON PURPOSE.

Stop making nonsense claims and read something on topic if you want to be taken seriously. I mean, works of historians, not articles from journalist with similar level of understanding as you shown ("everyone knows, Stalin killed 20,000,000 people after WW2")

Nuremberg might have not been best comparison, actually. Try Beria, Abakumov, Yezhov or any other "enemy of the state". They certainly did everything according to laws as well.

Yes, they did. And archives contain records from Yezhov and Beria times.

I do not claim these numbers should be multiplied with figure of 10. I believe we could multiply them with something between 1 and 1,5.

Agree.

However, these numbers can not be represented as "all victims of Stalin".
You do not have Holodomor victims here, for example. Or those murdered at Katyn. Or did people not die in prisons before 1939?

As I said, not all people who died in prisons can be considered as victims of repressions. Anyway, people who died in prisons and Katyn victims in total will not change whole number - comparing to GULAG victims these numbers are very small.

For Holodomor - Soviet government and local authorities obviously have some responsibility for that. Many people died because of mismanagement. But you cannot simply add a few millions to Stalin's victims as if they were executed, otherwise you may also start counting a millions of Putin's "repressions" or hell knows what else.

 

[Yeekim]

Yes, they did.

...and it did not save them.

But you cannot simply add a few millions to Stalin's victims as if they were executed, otherwise you may also start counting a millions of Putin's "repressions" or hell knows what else.

I believe that if I was given a choice, I would prefer to be shot rather than starved to death...

 

[red_elk]

Ralph, thank's for support.

 

[civhelp121]

new news in the New York Times: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/03/world/europe/03georgia.html?_r=1&scp=3&sq=russia&st=cse

Russia refuses to move its troops out of the South Ossetia and Abkhazia. Is there any better proof that Russia was not just invading Georgia in retaliation?