1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

#Euromaidan and #DANSwithMe - discussion on protests in Eastern Europe

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by AvalancheMaster, Dec 1, 2013.

  1. Tahuti

    Tahuti Writing Deity

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2005
    Messages:
    9,492
    Gender:
    Male
    The problem was that there likely wasn't anyone better them him suitable for the job in Russia. Unlike the former Soviet satelites, most of the former Soviet countries themselves still had a large old guard who had interest in keeping and restoring the Soviet system. In other words, personal interests aside, Yeltsin HAD to be a kleptocrat in order to not be deposed.
     
  2. Winner

    Winner Diverse in Unity

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2004
    Messages:
    27,947
    Location:
    Brno -> Czech rep. >>European Union
    And they're a drop in the sea of peaceful protesters, which is clear to anybody who isn't lazy enough to use their brains for a few seconds.

    That it's a case of severe pot-calling-the-kettle-blackesia. Ultranationalism among Russians is probably the most aggressive and virulent in Eastern Europe, so you bleating about some skinhead morons in Ukraine is rich.

    If he recants, his conservative backbenchers will roast him alive. The Tories are scared stiff of losing braindead voters to UKIP. If the referendum is already promised, reneging on it by Labour could be very politically damaging to that party. The only party in Britain who seem to be genuinely pro-EU are the Liberal Democrats, and they suffer for it at the hands of the English electorate. (And I might add they're pretty schizophrenic for sitting in this europhobic government when it's clear they cannot serve as a moderating influence).

    It's more like Scotland would be more willing to vote for independence if staying part of the UK meant EUxit. As it appears now, Scotland will vote NO, and the UK will then leave the EU after a referendum.

    I for one hope the EU will make them feel what leaving the single market really means in the subsequent trade negotiations.
     
  3. Tahuti

    Tahuti Writing Deity

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2005
    Messages:
    9,492
    Gender:
    Male
    Labour is still more Pro-Europe than the Conservatives are, and only the Tories have promised the referendum. The Liberal Democrats will lose a lot of votes for reneging on promises and frankly, they deserve it. Should Cameron win the upcoming elections, he may well renege on that promise of referendum too; Britain has been major voice for reforms in the EU that are pretty favourable towards further integration, for instance, the opening of the services markets, which has been opposed by Germany.

    The main reason why Euroscepticism is politically correct in Britain is that the EU in its current incarnation blatantly favours industrialised and agricultural economies like Germany and Spain respectively over service economies like Britain. That's a very respectable reason for opposition to the EU. And that should be changed, and not only to keep Britain in the EU.

    That's also true. Scotland is one of the more pro-EU parts of Britain alongside Greater London.

    That said, exiting EU != existing European Single Market. Britain may continue to be part of the EEA. Functionally, not to dissimilar from continuing EU membership, aside from not being able to vote in European Elections and having complete sovereignty in fisheries (as we all know, the backbone and lifeblood of the British economy...). But probably it's jerking off to the fact the UK isn't part of the EU that counts.
     
  4. red_elk

    red_elk Deity

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2006
    Messages:
    12,829
    That they are the most aggressive, yes. What isn't so obvious, is the side which they are supporting.

    Tyagnibok's party got about 10% seats in state parliament.

    I understand, you are upset by the fact that you are on the side of skinhead morons in this conflict. But your ad-hominem about Russian nationalists and calling my messages "bleating" just mean you don't have better arguments.
     
  5. Winner

    Winner Diverse in Unity

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2004
    Messages:
    27,947
    Location:
    Brno -> Czech rep. >>European Union
    If that makes you feel better :dunno:

    I am simply pointing out that you're only too willing to accept being manipulated. I am not on the side of skinheads and other degenerates; I realize they exist and they do what they always do but I don't make wrong inferences about their importance and relevance. You do.

    BTW, practically every Russian on this forum (there are honourable exceptions) I've seen adheres to the "Russia, right or wrong" trope. I realize it's a small sample group, but even the Americans are not as obnoxiously "patriotic". This is cynicism-made-religion.
     
  6. Traitorfish

    Traitorfish The Tighnahulish Kid

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2005
    Messages:
    32,467
    Location:
    Scotland
    Just to add, the fishing thing is actually a pretty big deal up in Scotland, and part of the reason the country is so pro-EU compared to England. Partly because fishing is a relatively big industry here, especially in in the North and East (not coincidentally SNIP-dominated), but also because its importance to the Highlands & Isles and especially to the Gaelic communities gives it an ideological significance even to Scots who aren't effected by it in any direct way. (There's a very real likelihood that the collapse of the fishing industry would spell the death of the Gaelic language.) It's very telling that one of the strongest arguments the pro-Union camp have brought out is that its not certain if an independent Scotland would be able to enter the EU.
     
  7. DemonicAppleGuY

    DemonicAppleGuY King

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2013
    Messages:
    881
    Location:
    US
    The problem is, the Russians are unwilling to let the Ukrainians go so they are using every tool they have to get the Ukrainians to side with the Russians.

    Ukraine is non-negotiable for the Russians. It's too important to lose.

    Ukraine and Russia are beginning talks now about another natural gas deal. I think it is highly likely Ukraine will be rewarded with a discount for staying away from the EU.

    From the Ukrainian perspective, joining the EU might mean protection, the Russians subjugation. If the Ukrainians did join the EU though the Russians could be extremely belligerent. Cutting off energy is the least of Ukraine's worries if the Russians think their core interests are at risk.

    The West hasn't recently had a great track record of protecting potential "recruits".

    Just look at Georgia. I know Ukraine is different but so is the West (and mainly the US).

    People are much more weary of a war now I think.
     
  8. red_elk

    red_elk Deity

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2006
    Messages:
    12,829
    Their importance and relevance is in the simple fact that they vastly diminish support of the movement from the Russian-speaking population of Ukraine. It's not necessary for them to be numerous, even 0.01% minority can be loud enough.

    You may have unpleasant feelings about Russians on this forum, or me personally or number of nationalists in Russia, all that stuff. And rant about it as much as you want, but all this have nothing to do with this topic and Ukraine in particular. If you want to answer me, address my messages, not my nationality.
     
  9. Tahuti

    Tahuti Writing Deity

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2005
    Messages:
    9,492
    Gender:
    Male
    Except that your nationality is your message. A bit of unnecessary one, since we all know that.
     
  10. red_elk

    red_elk Deity

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2006
    Messages:
    12,829
    I'm not quite understand what you mean, can you elaborate?
    - All people of my nationality have the same opinion?
    - My opinion here is irrelevant, because I'm Russian?
    - Something else?
     
  11. Tahuti

    Tahuti Writing Deity

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2005
    Messages:
    9,492
    Gender:
    Male
    Yes. We call this 'Polanding'.
     
  12. red_elk

    red_elk Deity

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2006
    Messages:
    12,829
    You mean, nationalistic rants and switching topic of discussion?
    I was talking about Ukraine, not Russia. Though some people noted that I'm not allowed to say a word about Ukrainian nationalists, because something is wrong with my own nationality. Also, enlightened EU supporters demonstrated how they can respectfully disagree with "bleating brainwashed Putin's apologists" - that was an interesting experience too.
     
  13. Borachio

    Borachio Way past lunacy

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2012
    Messages:
    26,698
    It's strange. You have my sympathy, Mr Elk.
     
  14. Lone Wolf

    Lone Wolf Deity

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2006
    Messages:
    9,896
  15. Tahuti

    Tahuti Writing Deity

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2005
    Messages:
    9,492
    Gender:
    Male
    Totally not of course. But besides, should the Ukrainian demonstrations be decided in favour of the Pro-European side, the next political battle will be between Svoboda and the other parties.
     
  16. Traitorfish

    Traitorfish The Tighnahulish Kid

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2005
    Messages:
    32,467
    Location:
    Scotland
    Well, they're fascists, so I'd hazard that "not at all" is the safest bet.
     
  17. Lone Wolf

    Lone Wolf Deity

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2006
    Messages:
    9,896
    Maybe. I don't think that this would be much to the other parties' credit, though.
    So far, Ukrainian ultra-nationalists had been mostly entryist rather then confrontative towards their non-fascist allies against Yanukovich/Russia.
     
  18. Traitorfish

    Traitorfish The Tighnahulish Kid

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2005
    Messages:
    32,467
    Location:
    Scotland
    A fascist is a fascist.
     
  19. red_elk

    red_elk Deity

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2006
    Messages:
    12,829
    No need to worry about them, they have only about 10% support in entire Ukraine and 30-40% in its Western regions. A drop in a sea of peaceful protesters.
     
  20. Tahuti

    Tahuti Writing Deity

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2005
    Messages:
    9,492
    Gender:
    Male
    That's because they are already confrontative towards Yanukovich.

    Svoboda seems to be more Far-Right populist (i.e. like Wilders) than Fascist, since Fascism requires a strong militaristic and jingoistic element that seems to be lacking with Svoboda. Fascists call for open war and a militaristic mentality in general. While Svoboda is anti-semitic, it is more of a result of Ukraine's history and akin to Wilder's and Le Pen's Islamophobia.

    It's true though, that they were originally a Neo-Nazi group. They have moderated their rhetoric, again similar to Front National. That all said, I do not wish to defend their viewpoints, as their's are quite similar, but at least they lack Fascism's militarism.
     

Share This Page