#Euromaidan and #DANSwithMe - discussion on protests in Eastern Europe

...probably because he, unfortunately, largely discredited "liberal democracy" in Russia for decades to come...
And the West shares certain responsibility for letting him get away with it.

The problem was that there likely wasn't anyone better them him suitable for the job in Russia. Unlike the former Soviet satelites, most of the former Soviet countries themselves still had a large old guard who had interest in keeping and restoring the Soviet system. In other words, personal interests aside, Yeltsin HAD to be a kleptocrat in order to not be deposed.
 
My point is clearly expressed in my message (quoted at the top of this page). That the most vocal and aggressive part of protesters are nationalists, that they discredit the movement and that it's understandable that the Russian people don't want to associate with them.

And they're a drop in the sea of peaceful protesters, which is clear to anybody who isn't lazy enough to use their brains for a few seconds.

Not sure what you mean by your Russia-is-lynching-negroes-too statement.

That it's a case of severe pot-calling-the-kettle-blackesia. Ultranationalism among Russians is probably the most aggressive and virulent in Eastern Europe, so you bleating about some skinhead morons in Ukraine is rich.

Nothing is ever set. There can always be a major event that turns the tide. Or there can be a major black swan event that strengthens an already appearant trend. Indeed, Cameron promised his Euro referendum - which would lead to a landslide defeat of continued EU membership - but that may never happen. He could recant his promise or be defeated by Labour in the next elections.

If he recants, his conservative backbenchers will roast him alive. The Tories are scared stiff of losing braindead voters to UKIP. If the referendum is already promised, reneging on it by Labour could be very politically damaging to that party. The only party in Britain who seem to be genuinely pro-EU are the Liberal Democrats, and they suffer for it at the hands of the English electorate. (And I might add they're pretty schizophrenic for sitting in this europhobic government when it's clear they cannot serve as a moderating influence).

Besides, should Scotland vote for independence, it may very well lead to a British 180 turn on Europe. One in favour of continued British EU membership.

It's more like Scotland would be more willing to vote for independence if staying part of the UK meant EUxit. As it appears now, Scotland will vote NO, and the UK will then leave the EU after a referendum.

I for one hope the EU will make them feel what leaving the single market really means in the subsequent trade negotiations.
 
If he recants, his conservative backbenchers will roast him alive. The Tories are scared stiff of losing braindead voters to UKIP. If the referendum is already promised, reneging on it by Labour could be very politically damaging to that party. The only party in Britain who seem to be genuinely pro-EU are the Liberal Democrats, and they suffer for it at the hands of the English electorate. (And I might add they're pretty schizophrenic for sitting in this europhobic government when it's clear they cannot serve as a moderating influence).

Labour is still more Pro-Europe than the Conservatives are, and only the Tories have promised the referendum. The Liberal Democrats will lose a lot of votes for reneging on promises and frankly, they deserve it. Should Cameron win the upcoming elections, he may well renege on that promise of referendum too; Britain has been major voice for reforms in the EU that are pretty favourable towards further integration, for instance, the opening of the services markets, which has been opposed by Germany.

The main reason why Euroscepticism is politically correct in Britain is that the EU in its current incarnation blatantly favours industrialised and agricultural economies like Germany and Spain respectively over service economies like Britain. That's a very respectable reason for opposition to the EU. And that should be changed, and not only to keep Britain in the EU.

It's more like Scotland would be more willing to vote for independence if staying part of the UK meant EUxit. As it appears now, Scotland will vote NO, and the UK will then leave the EU after a referendum.

I for one hope the EU will make them feel what leaving the single market really means in the subsequent trade negotiations.

That's also true. Scotland is one of the more pro-EU parts of Britain alongside Greater London.

That said, exiting EU != existing European Single Market. Britain may continue to be part of the EEA. Functionally, not to dissimilar from continuing EU membership, aside from not being able to vote in European Elections and having complete sovereignty in fisheries (as we all know, the backbone and lifeblood of the British economy...). But probably it's jerking off to the fact the UK isn't part of the EU that counts.
 
With my addition in bold, isn't this true almost by definition?
That they are the most aggressive, yes. What isn't so obvious, is the side which they are supporting.

Anyway, they may be most vocal and aggressive, but are they also significant in the way of numbers?
Tyagnibok's party got about 10% seats in state parliament.

That it's a case of severe pot-calling-the-kettle-blackesia. Ultranationalism among Russians is probably the most aggressive and virulent in Eastern Europe, so you bleating about some skinhead morons in Ukraine is rich.
I understand, you are upset by the fact that you are on the side of skinhead morons in this conflict. But your ad-hominem about Russian nationalists and calling my messages "bleating" just mean you don't have better arguments.
 
I understand, you are upset by the fact that you are on the side of skinhead morons in this conflict. But your ad-hominem about Russian nationalists and calling my messages "bleating" just mean you don't have better arguments.

If that makes you feel better :dunno:

I am simply pointing out that you're only too willing to accept being manipulated. I am not on the side of skinheads and other degenerates; I realize they exist and they do what they always do but I don't make wrong inferences about their importance and relevance. You do.

BTW, practically every Russian on this forum (there are honourable exceptions) I've seen adheres to the "Russia, right or wrong" trope. I realize it's a small sample group, but even the Americans are not as obnoxiously "patriotic". This is cynicism-made-religion.
 
That's also true. Scotland is one of the more pro-EU parts of Britain alongside Greater London.

That said, exiting EU != existing European Single Market. Britain may continue to be part of the EEA. Functionally, not to dissimilar from continuing EU membership, aside from not being able to vote in European Elections and having complete sovereignty in fisheries (as we all know, the backbone and lifeblood of the British economy...). But probably it's jerking off to the fact the UK isn't part of the EU that counts.
Just to add, the fishing thing is actually a pretty big deal up in Scotland, and part of the reason the country is so pro-EU compared to England. Partly because fishing is a relatively big industry here, especially in in the North and East (not coincidentally SNIP-dominated), but also because its importance to the Highlands & Isles and especially to the Gaelic communities gives it an ideological significance even to Scots who aren't effected by it in any direct way. (There's a very real likelihood that the collapse of the fishing industry would spell the death of the Gaelic language.) It's very telling that one of the strongest arguments the pro-Union camp have brought out is that its not certain if an independent Scotland would be able to enter the EU.
 
The problem is, the Russians are unwilling to let the Ukrainians go so they are using every tool they have to get the Ukrainians to side with the Russians.

Ukraine is non-negotiable for the Russians. It's too important to lose.

Ukraine and Russia are beginning talks now about another natural gas deal. I think it is highly likely Ukraine will be rewarded with a discount for staying away from the EU.

From the Ukrainian perspective, joining the EU might mean protection, the Russians subjugation. If the Ukrainians did join the EU though the Russians could be extremely belligerent. Cutting off energy is the least of Ukraine's worries if the Russians think their core interests are at risk.

The West hasn't recently had a great track record of protecting potential "recruits".

Just look at Georgia. I know Ukraine is different but so is the West (and mainly the US).

People are much more weary of a war now I think.
 
I realize they exist and they do what they always do but I don't make wrong inferences about their importance and relevance. You do.
Their importance and relevance is in the simple fact that they vastly diminish support of the movement from the Russian-speaking population of Ukraine. It's not necessary for them to be numerous, even 0.01% minority can be loud enough.

BTW, practically every Russian on this forum (there are honourable exceptions) I've seen adheres to the "Russia, right or wrong" trope. I realize it's a small sample group, but even the Americans are not as obnoxiously "patriotic". This is cynicism-made-religion.
You may have unpleasant feelings about Russians on this forum, or me personally or number of nationalists in Russia, all that stuff. And rant about it as much as you want, but all this have nothing to do with this topic and Ukraine in particular. If you want to answer me, address my messages, not my nationality.
 
address my messages, not my nationality.

Except that your nationality is your message. A bit of unnecessary one, since we all know that.
 
I'm not quite understand what you mean, can you elaborate?
- All people of my nationality have the same opinion?
- My opinion here is irrelevant, because I'm Russian?
- Something else?
 
Yes. We call this 'Polanding'.
You mean, nationalistic rants and switching topic of discussion?
I was talking about Ukraine, not Russia. Though some people noted that I'm not allowed to say a word about Ukrainian nationalists, because something is wrong with my own nationality. Also, enlightened EU supporters demonstrated how they can respectfully disagree with "bleating brainwashed Putin's apologists" - that was an interesting experience too.
 
I dunno how much the leadership of Svoboda (the Ukrainian far-right ultranationalist party that, like its Western European counterparts, occasionally presents a liberal face - see more of its activities by the same author) is to be trusted, though.

Totally not of course. But besides, should the Ukrainian demonstrations be decided in favour of the Pro-European side, the next political battle will be between Svoboda and the other parties.
 
But besides, should the Ukrainian demonstrations be decided in favour of the Pro-European side, the next political battle will be between Svoboda and the other parties.
Maybe. I don't think that this would be much to the other parties' credit, though.
So far, Ukrainian ultra-nationalists had been mostly entryist rather then confrontative towards their non-fascist allies against Yanukovich/Russia.
 
Well, they're fascists, so I'd hazard that "not at all" is the safest bet.
No need to worry about them, they have only about 10% support in entire Ukraine and 30-40% in its Western regions. A drop in a sea of peaceful protesters.
 
Maybe. I don't think that this would be much to the other parties' credit, though.
So far, Ukrainian ultra-nationalists had been mostly entryist rather then confrontative towards their non-fascist allies against Yanukovich/Russia.

That's because they are already confrontative towards Yanukovich.

A fascist is a fascist.

Svoboda seems to be more Far-Right populist (i.e. like Wilders) than Fascist, since Fascism requires a strong militaristic and jingoistic element that seems to be lacking with Svoboda. Fascists call for open war and a militaristic mentality in general. While Svoboda is anti-semitic, it is more of a result of Ukraine's history and akin to Wilder's and Le Pen's Islamophobia.

It's true though, that they were originally a Neo-Nazi group. They have moderated their rhetoric, again similar to Front National. That all said, I do not wish to defend their viewpoints, as their's are quite similar, but at least they lack Fascism's militarism.
 
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