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#Euromaidan and #DANSwithMe - discussion on protests in Eastern Europe

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by AvalancheMaster, Dec 1, 2013.

  1. Lone Wolf

    Lone Wolf Deity

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    In my experience, they insist that they are the True Slavs, while the Russians are Tataro-Ugric mongrel untermenschen. Then again, I wouldn't be surprised if Ukrainian ultranationalists manage to simultaneously insist on both.
     
  2. gay_Aleks

    gay_Aleks communism will win.

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    Of course, after about 1500 years of Tataro-Ugric marriages with Slavs, they're still Tataro-Ugric [expletive expletive expletive]. But of course.
     
  3. Domen

    Domen Misico dux Vandalorum

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    Tataro-Finno-Ugric, actually. And those Finno-Ugric tribes were eventually totally assimilated by Slavic people.

    There were also many other originally non-Slavic territories which eventually became Slavic. Much of present Russia was also Slavicized, when Slavic tribes expanded into territories inhabited by Finno-Ugric and Baltic tribes, establishing their Slavic rules there.

    For example Zalesye region of modern Russia, before the invasion of Eastern Slavic tribes during the 9th century, was inhabited by Merians, Muroma and other Finnic tribes - who spoke a language similar to modern day Finnish language.

    They were later conquered by Slavic tribes and Slavicized:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zalesye

    Southward and westward Slavic expansion during the Late Ancient Era / Early Middle Ages is well-known.

    But people often overlook Slavic eastward and northward expansion during the same period.

    What happened with Iranian Sarmatians and Scythians - who lived in the steppes of what is now South Ukraine - is still a major puzzle for historians.

    Nowadays it is quite commonly assumed that they were defeated by Huns during their invasion of the steppes, and that their remnants took refugee among neighbouring tribes - i.e. some of them escaped north and north-west to Slavic territories, some others could as well escape to Turkic tribes who lived to the south-east and east of them. Thus claims that there were some of Iranian nomads among Turkic Proto-Bulgars is not such an empty claim.

    Please note that Bulgarians are nowadays a Slavic-speaking nation.

    So even if Proto-Bulgars were Turkic-speaking (maybe they were), they later got assimilated totally into Slavic language and culture.

    Proto-Bulgars were not Turks for sure - but they were most probably Turkic.

    There is a difference between Turkic and Turks like between Germanic and Swedish.

    You can say that Norwegians are Germanic, but you can't say they are Swedish.

    It seems that Slavic languages indeed sound quite similar. Here is one of the oldest texts ever written in Slavic language - "Freising manuscripts" (transcribed to latine letters between 972 and 1039, but assumed by some historians to be originally written during the 9th century):

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freising_manuscripts


    Link to video.

    The funny thing about it, is that I can actually figure out what this guy is saying (even though this text is from the 9th century!):

    Of course I cannot understand some words - at least at first glance - but this would be the translation to English:

    It begins:

    "God, loving Landlord, father God, thee shrive me, take my sin;
    And blessed baptism [or Saint Christoph?], and Saint Mary, and Saint Michael, (...)
    etc., etc., etc.

    In Polish this would be:

    "Boże, Gospodarzu miłościwy, ojcze Boże, ty mnie wyspowiadaj, weź mój grzech;
    I świętemu chrztu [czy Krzysztofowi?], i świętej Maryi, i świętemu Michałowi, (...)
    etc., etc., etc.

    I can easily try to "figure out" the meaning of more of it, and not without success (but it would take some time and some thinking).

    =============================
    =============================

    Poles have this problem with Czech language, actually! :)

    For example:

    Polish word szukać = to search.

    Czech word šukat = ... Winner knows :)

    Polish word for May = maj
    Polish word for April = kwiecień

    Czech word for May = květen :)
    Czech word for April = duben

    Word bezcenny in Polish = priceless
    Word bezcenný in Czech = worthless :)

    Polish droga = road (as well as expensive)
    Czech droga = narcotic / drug

    Word sklep in Polish = shop
    Word sklep in Czech = cellar

    Word piwnica in Polish = cellar
    Word pivnice in Czech = bar

    Word laska in Polish = staff or (in slang) hot girl
    Word láska in Czech = love

    Word miłość in Polish = love
    Word milost in Czech = reprieve

    Word czerstwe (about bread) in Polish = old
    Word čerstvé (about bread) in Czech = fresh :)

    Strawberry in Polish = truskawka
    Strawberry in Czech = jahoda
    Berry in Polish = jagoda

    Polish długopis = ballpoint pen
    Czech dluhopis = bond

    Polish bałwan = snowman
    Czech balvan = big stone

    Etc., etc., etc.

    ==================================

    But as far as I know, there are some of similar hilarious differences between British English and American English.

    For example pants or stocks - both have two different meanings in BE and in AE. And there are much more of similar words, AFAIK.
     
  4. Borachio

    Borachio Way past lunacy

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    Pants, sure.

    Stocks, hmm....

    Stock actually has 24 different meanings in any variety of English.
     
  5. red_elk

    red_elk Deity

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    Interesting, added a few Russian similar words, in bold:

     
  6. Domen

    Domen Misico dux Vandalorum

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    This (stupid man) is actually an alternative meaning of bałwan in Polish as well.

    bałwan is one of a dozen or so synonyms of idiota (and idiota is of course idiot in English):

    http://megaslownik.pl/slownik/synonimy_antonimy/6275,idiota

    But a more popular / more commonly used meaning of bałwan is snowman.

    English is such a flexible language. :p

    ===========================================

    Regarding these funny differences between Polish and Czech vocabulary - they are the main theme of "Czech jokes" and "Czech humour" in Poland.

    Of course such "Czech jokes" are usually making use of invented and even more funny, fake Czech-like words, rather than real ones.

    For example there is a joke that "Terminator" movie was shown in Czech cinemas as "Elektronicky Mordulec" (electronic murderer).

    Or another joke, that parasol (umbrella) in Czech language is "szmaticzku na paticzku" (rag on a stick). Etc., etc.:

    Another type of "Czech jokes" is making fun not of contradictory meaning of Czech words, but of how they sound (some Poles consider it funny):

    "Czech song" by Polish Kabaret Ani Mru Mru:


    Link to video.

    Polish political parody version of Czech Banjo Band's "Jožin z bažin" - "Donald marzy" ("Donald is dreaming" - about Prime Minister Donald Tusk):


    Link to video.

    And here original version by Banjo Band:


    Link to video.

    ====================================

    And here actually something real:

    Czech term "To se ne vrati" means "It is not worth-while" - but it sounds in Polish more like "It will never repeat again". ;)

    Czech vrati sounds like Polish wracać (to come back / to repeat).

    Polish idiom "Czech movie" (comedy movie that is funny, but nobody can understand what it is about) perhaps also has its origins in vocabulary differences.
     
  7. Winner

    Winner Diverse in Unity

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    Not in my experience. The ones I talked with were very nice people.



    You people are crazy. At least the Slovaks know what words are supposed to mean...

    Actually, it's written as "To se nevrátí" and that sentence is inherently ambiguous and dependent on the immediate context. As it is it literally means "It will not return."

    As for "Czeski film", here's our revenge:


    Link to video.
     
  8. Camikaze

    Camikaze Administrator Administrator

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    Moderator Action: This topic appears to have pirouetted a few times; closed while I try to untangle some threads. Please remember that, particularly in the Chamber, you shouldn't enter a thread to hijack it.
     
  9. Camikaze

    Camikaze Administrator Administrator

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    Moderator Action: The derailment regarding the word 'gypsy' doesn't really have enough to it to warrant splitting off, though feel free to start a thread on the topic if you wish.

    The discussion regarding the EU isn't directly on-topic, so please start another thread if you wish to discuss a possible referendum in the UK, for example, unless you are relating that back to the thread topic.

    The discussion of fascism and anti-Semitism is the worst of the derailments, it seems, as it quickly became hard to see what it had to do with the topic. Please only discuss fascism as it relates to the the topic laid out by the OP. Again, you're free to create your own thread on the topic, but I'm not going to split off something quite that provocative; someone should come up with a decent OP for that discussion.

    The discussion of languages also doesn't seem particularly relevant to the thread topic, so please steer clear of that as well.

    Please realise that contributing to the derailment of threads isn't okay, and can result in warnings, infractions and bans. Seeing as pretty much everyone in this thread is guilty to some extent, I won't try to precisely apportion blame - please consider this a general warning about derailing threads in the Chamber.

    There have been a couple of comments that seek to just pick on a poster instead of making an attempt to discuss what they've said. Please avoid trolling, especially in the Chamber. If you don't want to reply to the points someone has made, don't post just to make fun of them. Either explain why you think they're wrong or misrepresenting things, or ignore them. I'd note also that it seems the trolling in this thread appears to be an attempt to shift blame for derailment onto an easy target.

    Also, please avoid copying and pasting entire articles, particularly when they clearly state that they're copyright protected.

    Thread reopened, and please try sticking to the topic.
     
  10. AvalancheMaster

    AvalancheMaster Not the face of mercy.

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  11. Domen

    Domen Misico dux Vandalorum

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    Link to video.

    :lol:
     
  12. AvalancheMaster

    AvalancheMaster Not the face of mercy.

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    Let's not tavernize the thread again, please.

    I posted the last video, but I didn't realize it doesn't speak for itself for English speakers. The video shows Yvo Bojkov, a member of the Bulgarian Protest Network, and a delegate of Protest Network in Ukraine, reading an address from the Network to the protesting Ukrainians. I do find this extremely important, as this shows the beginning of the unification of those protests, going from national to international level.
     
  13. Domen

    Domen Misico dux Vandalorum

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    The same happened during the Arab Spring - at first just one country, then more and more of them.
     
  14. gay_Aleks

    gay_Aleks communism will win.

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    Yes, but unlike the Arab spring we aren't shooting each other in the streets and splitting against each other, and fighting the military (because, Bulgaria has the hilarious 120k soldiers ready for battle...). We're just peacefully protesting, until some <snip> decides to radicalise this whole business.
     
  15. AvalancheMaster

    AvalancheMaster Not the face of mercy.

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    Honestly, I do not see a solution of the situation without using violent means.
     
  16. LamaGT

    LamaGT Emperor

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    You forget about all those centuries of Polish domination in Western Ukraine. Lexically Ukrainian feels much closer to Polish than Russian, though of course I've never made any studies about that.

    Anyway, just wanted to add a little something as a Russian speaking Ukrainian (though I have a hard time identifying myself as either).

    The corruption in Ukraine lies in the problem of it all, with all this corruption nobody in power will ever want to join the EU and see that power stripped away from them, but at the same time joining Russia might also mean death for at least some of the oligarchs. So Ukraine is stuck there, unable to decide in favor of anything.
    The people of course want to join the EU because even the Russian speaking Ukrainians realize that Russia itself is well on its way of becoming a dictatorship (Ukraine itself is a little different, the oligarchs are split into factions and nobody has clear dominance).

    Unfortunately I think that the EU will never take on an infected nation before decontaminating it first, and the EU is not powerful enough to do such a thing. This leaves Russia, which has the power and the intention to absorb the infected nation since it already is infected.
    Unfortunately nothing is going to remove the corruption anytime soon, it has become so engrained in people that anybody, given the possibility, would take a bribe or steal something from someone else, and I really mean EVERYONE.

    I would really love it if Ukraine could become a Switzerland of sorts, independent from both the EU and Russia and powerful militarily.
     
  17. Tahuti

    Tahuti Writing Deity

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    That won't happen. Because closer ties to the EU/Russia are part of a tug of war between several factions of Ukrainian society, as you may have noticed yourself as a Ukrainian. So a Switzerland like situation would require a fundamental change of Ukrainian society.

    Then there is also basic geography: At least for now, Switzerland is surrounded by EU countries and somewhat entangled between what are mostly NATO countries. They can get into (or can into :p) free-trade agreements with the EU and benefit from it without doing any effort on their part. The same is true for other European countries that are relatively isolated or surrounded like Norway and Iceland, since such puts them into a very strong bargaining position towards the EU: The EU can hardly invade them, or something like that. For the Ukraine to be politically like Switzerland in this aspect, it would need to have its direct neighbours being part of the EU, including Russia.
     
  18. AvalancheMaster

    AvalancheMaster Not the face of mercy.

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    This.

    Bulgaria and Ukraine have a lot of similarities, this being one of them. Ukraine is locked between Europe and Russia, in one of the most fertile plains in the world. Bulgaria is locked between Turkey, a long time geopolitical rival of Russia, Romania, which is in the same situation as us, and other Balkan countries, that have proven to be more unruly than Bulgaria (the last time we were at war was during WWII, on the side of Germany, we didn't send a single troop, but we managed to save our Jewish population. Last time Serbia was at war? Eh...)

    Bulgaria is also quite close to the Middle East, and with Turkey's recent decision to "abandon" its role as an US ally, Bulgaria is a crucial point.

    Meanwhile, Switzerland has nothing but banks, money, and chocolate, amid one of the most mountainous regions of Europe. And leads to nowhere.

    I bet you can see the difference.
     
  19. Tahuti

    Tahuti Writing Deity

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    The major difference between Bulgaria and Ukraine - despite their obvious similarities - the Russia has waaaaaaaay more bargaining power over Ukraine than Turkey has over Bulgaria, especially against the EU. Also, Turkey in some ways tries become part of the same club as Bulgaria, while Russia is competing with it. IIANM, the Turkish minority is less numerous and influential than the Russian minority in Ukraine, which is quite significant.
     
  20. AvalancheMaster

    AvalancheMaster Not the face of mercy.

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    You misunderstood me (though it's easy to - most Bulgarian nationalists "warn" of a Turkish interventionism). The problem with Turkey is that Russia is still interested in keeping the grip of power tight in the region. Especially with the latest turmoils in the Caucasus region. Russia is loosing both ground and power, and it's trying to regain it - the latest successful attempt being the signing of the South Stream contract.
     

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