Europa universalis iv & civ
- Thread starter El Caballerion
- Start date
El Caballerion
King
No. It's a great point. I hate how CIV bogs down toward late game. That is why 90% of the games I play are never finished because it takes too long. Maybe CIV doesn't have to look at EU's structure in this regard, but they NEED to speed up late-game wait times.
In EU, you play the uber-controller of a specific country that has a series of individual rulers (for countries that don't have republican forms of government). Those rulers have varying skills to contribute to your country (including skills as a general leading an army), and they die from time to time (as happens to all of us, in time). If your deceased ruler lacked a legal heir, a succession fight may ensue. If the heir is underaged, a regency council will govern, with tighter restrictions on its diplomatic options.
There are occassional "chick rulers" (I think), but during the period of time EU represents they were relatively rare.
Abraxis
☮
I noticed an option for "Defender of the faith" somewhere in the religion tab for Catholicism that specified a female ruler was required for its implementation. Unclear as to the specifics, didn't look that closely, but given that, it would seem women are probably represented as well as integrated uniquely into gameplay in at least one case.
poom3619
Ping Pang Poom!
Umm. Coding for EU IV's AI would not be a easy task as you have to code 250-ish AI that both can play the game and works simultaneously when the time flow, and I guess they done pretty good work as Paradox forum also have "terrible AI" in their dictionary.
and CiV AI's choice always lift someone's eyebrows even there are probably only 4 AI running at once for each major civ (as CiV vanilla dev said), taking their turn. which then moving worker to the front-line of human player's army. Go back to your web vs root structure metaphor, pretend you're a computer trying to chart every possible route, You should know that settling a city at somewhere that there are like 20 hexes of foreign border between the new city site and your border isn't practical idea. So you should rather do something better. Too bad, even BNW AI still make some awkward choice.
Yes, It's might be a disservice for CiV coder to say their AI are considerably flawed and they have something to learn from EUIV. But I think it would be tragedy if we don't.
learner gamer
King
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Having bought and played the game for a few hours, I'd say that the biggest thing that Civ can take from Paradox's latest title is that Firaxis really need to look at allowing the gamer to do more per turn (or per period of time) to sustain a gamer's interest in the game, during the early game especially. For me at least, game pacing is the single biggest difference between the titles: I seem to spend much more time actually doing something when playing EU4 than I do when I play Civ 5.
As I've mentioned in numerous previous posts, IMHO this all has it's roots in Civ 5's happiness mechanic and the level that it's set at and / or the lack of early game hammer and gold availability relative to build and buy costs. Thankfully, if history is any guide, various tweaks which improve BNW's balance and provide more for the gamer to do per turn will be implemented in Thalassicus' CEP mod in time. Until then however, I have to confess that my early experience of EU4 has really reinforced to me just how much Civ 5's happiness mechanic (or the level at which it's set) and the lack of early game hammers and / or gold detract from (especially early game) flexibility that I'd like to have seen in a sandbox like BNW.
As I've mentioned in numerous previous posts, IMHO this all has it's roots in Civ 5's happiness mechanic and the level that it's set at and / or the lack of early game hammer and gold availability relative to build and buy costs. Thankfully, if history is any guide, various tweaks which improve BNW's balance and provide more for the gamer to do per turn will be implemented in Thalassicus' CEP mod in time. Until then however, I have to confess that my early experience of EU4 has really reinforced to me just how much Civ 5's happiness mechanic (or the level at which it's set) and the lack of early game hammers and / or gold detract from (especially early game) flexibility that I'd like to have seen in a sandbox like BNW.
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Talking about how late games slow down and are unplayable and then bringing up EU's structure in the late game implies that EU's late game was ever any better.
Ever heard of patience?
Fabiano79
Prince
- Joined
- Sep 30, 2008
- Messages
- 337
My advice, buy EU IV right now!
After weeks of addiction on BNW, EU IV enable me to break free.
Now Im counting with Rome II to save me from EU IV.
My guess is that after a good number of weeks playing Rome II, I will come back to Civ, then EU, then Rome...
Its like a golden age of strategy games! Let us rejoice!
After weeks of addiction on BNW, EU IV enable me to break free.
Now Im counting with Rome II to save me from EU IV.
My guess is that after a good number of weeks playing Rome II, I will come back to Civ, then EU, then Rome...
Its like a golden age of strategy games! Let us rejoice!
El Caballerion
King
When a game bogs down to the point that turn 1000 takes 10 times longer than it did at turn 1, then no. I have no patience.
And what will break you from Rome II, EU IV, and CiV completely? GTA V? COD: Ghost? Perhaps, The Elder Scrolls Online?
seasnake
Conquistador
thank you. there is no holy war here people, its okay to like and play civ, euiv, total war and aoe without declaring an undying allegiance.
Fabiano79
Prince
- Joined
- Sep 30, 2008
- Messages
- 337
Nah, the only game I can see on the near future that will grab my attention is the witcher 3. It looks really nice.
True_Candyman
Emperor
Damn capitalists, buying things to solve the problems they developed from buying things...
In the ordered Incan empire we do not share your petty first world problems.
In the ordered Incan empire we do not share your petty first world problems.
Yes. That is a good point!
It's an entirely different system and style though. It's one thing controlling a large number of nations on a very finite and static map, it's an entirely different one on an enormous hexgrid with huge numbers of moving units.
Even on the most basic level, a huge sized map in Civ V has what, 10,240 hexes with connections in 6 directions to consider for by default, 12 full civs (having a large number of units each) as well as a further 24 city states and the barbarians. That's already 37 separate entities with all of their movements in a 1 UPT environment to consider in a map that is generated each game, rather than a set map.
Now, I can't find a direct source for the number of provinces on the EU4 map, but from the developers diaries they said it was only about 10% more than in EU3, which had 1882 land provinces (including waste lands) and 1741 sea provinces from the sources I can find. This would mean there would be roughly 3990 or less for land, sea and wasteland together for EU4 if those figures are accurate. That's just a bit smaller than a standard sized map, although the total connections between them would likely be smaller too. So before even considering the complexities of borders and such that need to be produced on Civ, it is already apparent that the faster speeds aren't all that much of a surprise, particularly as the game in general is considerably less power hungry overall.
poom3619
Ping Pang Poom!
When the game that's should be my most enjoyable game turned into dreadful waiting for horribly slow research to win Science Victory even I am leading in tech? I have little patience on that actually. Even I turn on "Auto end turn" it's still annoying and slow. Even I practically make everything run on it's own, there are still AI praising me as paragon of something or offer me an open border every few turn.
I need a lot of patience on that.
I still wonder how much effort is needed to code AI to efficiently fighting war despite of dynamic terrain while, in comparison, Panzer General which being made almost 20 years ago make me feel that conquering Poland is harder than it's sound and IMHO, In late game AI don't have to focus on the whole world map or everything they can.
Uhh, Could anyone tell me what CiV's AI done that need that much time to end turn in late game.
I dont know how the AI in Civ works, but sometimes the problem is that each layer of complexity you add to the system raises the number of possibilities the AI has to take into account way more then the one before.
Cant come up with a good example, and in addition to that I dont know how to type mathematical symbols... Cant realy explain what I mean, sorry
I've read that turning off unit movement animations (quick movement?) in the preferences speeds turn times. Might give that a whirl.
Abraxis
☮
For every variable you have dependent on another variable, possible iterations, or complexity, increases by an order of magnitude. You literally add a whole new dimension of possibilities, all of which need to be accounted for.
EU4 was designed in such a way as to minimize these base variables into constants, solid, consistent facts that won't multiply the possibilities when interacting with the variable above it.
Look at it from an engineering standpoint. On one hand you have a train. Very simple design because you've turned the ground into a constant, rails. You know that the only possible connection this train will have to the variable earth will be the constant rails, a uniform surface. So you can optimize your train's design based on that. There are a number of possible designs and possibilities for said train, but they all stem from the same constant. Now imagine a vehicle that would have to traverse all imaginable terrain features. All you're doing is turning that constant into a variable, and suddenly the complexity of the project and possible design iterations skyrockets astronomically.
As a very basic and imperfect explanation, Civ5's AI is designed around "improvising" based on its environmental variables. EU is optimized for a finite, mostly unchanging environment, probably with a lot of patchwork for specifically stated exceptions and checks.
I thought this could be inferred from my first two explanations, maybe someone else can explain it better, without getting into computer science jargon, I have no idea.
EU4 was designed in such a way as to minimize these base variables into constants, solid, consistent facts that won't multiply the possibilities when interacting with the variable above it.
Look at it from an engineering standpoint. On one hand you have a train. Very simple design because you've turned the ground into a constant, rails. You know that the only possible connection this train will have to the variable earth will be the constant rails, a uniform surface. So you can optimize your train's design based on that. There are a number of possible designs and possibilities for said train, but they all stem from the same constant. Now imagine a vehicle that would have to traverse all imaginable terrain features. All you're doing is turning that constant into a variable, and suddenly the complexity of the project and possible design iterations skyrockets astronomically.
As a very basic and imperfect explanation, Civ5's AI is designed around "improvising" based on its environmental variables. EU is optimized for a finite, mostly unchanging environment, probably with a lot of patchwork for specifically stated exceptions and checks.
I thought this could be inferred from my first two explanations, maybe someone else can explain it better, without getting into computer science jargon, I have no idea.
