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Europa Universalis IV

Discussion in 'All Other Games' started by MoreEpicThanYou, Aug 10, 2012.

  1. GAGA Extrem

    GAGA Extrem Emperor

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    Good idea, mediocre execution.

    I guess it's "okay" for the prize and adds some decent foundation to build more stuff upon (I think that colony / protectorate stuff can make an awesome feature for Vicky III). But there could have been more - better and more New World options, more events & interactions with vassals, colonies and protectorates, stuff like that...

    As for vasall feeding: I never used it and still dominated the game - and I am not even a warmonger. I think the game is still a cakewalk if you stick to a reasonable pace, but I guess many people think that you should be able to conquer europe within 100 years...

    ...my bigger gripe with the "empire building" is that there is not much stuff to build. EU4 is a pretty shallow wargame once you have understood how that stuff works. No internal politics that would make the game more interesting (like in EU: Rome, Vicky II, CK2 or Magna Mundi for EU3), no real economy (like in Vicky II) and really not much strategic depth. Imho its a pretty bad sign that the much more RP-focused CK2 has a vastly superior combat system with several unit types, more detailed impact of leaders. Not that the CK2 system is perfet (it still has so much potential for improvement), but it is a lot better than the simple "carryover" from EU3. :/

    So, yeah, some interesting new features, but the core of the game is still flawed for my taste.
     
  2. Sonereal

    Sonereal ♫We got the guillotine♫ Supporter

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    That's because EU3 and EUIV were little more than just gateways to the hard stuff like V2, HoI3, and CK2. People who like complex economies are already playing V2. People who like character-driven stuff or internal politics are off to play CK2 or V2. People who want strategic depth in their war games are off to play V2 or HoI3.
     
  3. TheLastOne36

    TheLastOne36 Deity

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    The new update has good improvements in the modding scene, which are much appreciated.
     
  4. Civ'ed

    Civ'ed I ain't gotta explain a thing

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    Speaking as someone who is currently playing the Sioux:
    • Federations - it is somehow very easy as a migrating nation to get everyone in the Americas into a big happy anticoalition. As an example, the Cherokee attacked the Cree (a federation member) and were utterly decimated. Because the federation consists of nearly every tribe in the americas.
      Note that I founded this federation and by this point was sitting comfortably on Vancouver Island.
    • Migrations - the AI tends to go for the eastern seaboard for some reason. This of course leaves the entire western americas open for the player (as mentioned before I'm in cascadia and everybody else is moving to a) Quebec or b) the Thirteen colonies. maybe they just want to die?
    • advancements - actually a nice idea and works rather well.
    I can't comment on the rest yet, because no europeans yet. I'm only 50 years in.
     
  5. Quintillus

    Quintillus Archiving Civ3 Content Supporter

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    Is CK2's combat system really superior to EU3/EU4? I know there are more unit types, and in theory there's a good variety of leaders. But in practice, I've found that there's not a whole lot of control over which units you have fighting. If your vassals have 400 light infantry, 200 heavy infantry, and 50 heavy cavalry, that's what you've got. Hire some mercenaries that you can afford, and you're fighting. If you've got low crown authority or higher, assign your best leaders to the three flanks. There's still some element of getting better terrain, but at least so far, to me, it seems like that's more important in EU than CKII.

    Maybe I'll discover why the more I play CKII, but at this point, I just tend to assign my best leaders by military strength to the most important armies. Whether someone's a Cavalry Leader or Experimental or whatnot, I ignore since I tend not to have that much control over whether my armies have a lot of cavalry or not anyway. Whereas in EU, there's at least the weighing of shock/fire vs maneouver vs siege, plus a clearer ability to influence the makeup of your armies and navies.

    It could also be that CKII's combat is better in theory but requires more micro than I'm willing to invest in it.

    I still kind of wish EU3: Chronicles had the ability to play Magna Mundi. It's like the mythical mod that's unplayable if you're late to the show and bought the (actual) complete edition. :(
     
  6. schlaufuchs

    schlaufuchs La Femme Moderne

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    EU3's combat system is actually fairly deep and can be really rewarding if you take the time to sit down and learn it. The problem is that for all intents and purposes you can get away with just running stacks of 8/6/0, defensive battles, and only fighting when you outnumber the AI for basically the entire game and not meaningfully notice the difference.
     
  7. Angst

    Angst Rambling and inconsistent

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    You notice it if you play as anything minor and spend the majority of your earliy games fighting larger nations. It feels much different (and much more elegant) than EU3.
     
  8. GAGA Extrem

    GAGA Extrem Emperor

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    The thing is that while the CK2 combat system does not use its full potential at this point, it still offers infinitely more modability than EU3/4. You can basicially go in there and add your own tactics that occure during combat, potentially adding battle events and all that stuff. You could mod in "major" events like routing, brilliant maneuvers, all that stuff. Plus: The tactics are reactive, so you can code stuff like "if bad general charges with his units AND has lots of CAV, good generals uses pike wall".
    I'd agree that the battles in CK2 are not random enough, but the randomness itself feels better than in EU3/4, because it is not simply a die-roll, but rather an interaction between the characters that are opposing each other on the flanks.

    As for the unit types, you have a few means of control over that. First of all, kings have access to retinues (iirc introduced with the Byzantium DLC), so they can basicially create a small standing army consisting of units of their choise. As for realm-wide troops, keep in mind that different types of holdings offer different units. Cities have LOTS of pikemen, so if your nemesis is a frankish kingdom (which has a lot more knights thanks to thei culture building), you should either build additional cities in the province slots or change the levy laws to adjust how many troops the different holdings have to supply.

    And again, the thing is fully modable. In the earlier days after release (when I was still working on my Bella Gerant Alii mod), I actually developed a system that replaced the default building system with "building slots" approach: Each holding had 3 building slots which the player could use to build either barracks OR archery OR stables OR a special culture building. So if the player wanted lots of archers, he could go with 3x archery. If he wanted a bit more cavalry, he could go 1x barracks, 2x stable. Compared to the stuff you can do in EU4, that is just an amazing amount of potential.

    Since each holding is a seperate unit, you can distribute units between the flanks. You could, for example, place the pikemen-heavy city levies in the center, while massing the knight-heavy castle troops on one flank and the infantry-heavy church levies at the other.

    Magna Mundi is absolutely BRUTAL (like the death of your king can spawn a country-wide crisis) and the AI has (or had) some unfair advantages (supply limit in foreign provinces), but it had sort of a Dwarf Fortress vibe to it ("losing is fun").

    The problem with EU4 combat is that there is more or less an ideal troop composition for every culture at any given tech level and once you have figured it out, there is nothing left but perfect stacks, strategic maneuvering on the map and abusing game-mechanics (like staggered movement to force the enemy to deploy his troops in an unfavorable way). Combat boils down to luck-of-the-die (and this does, imho, also include leader stat generation).

    That certainly doesn't mean that it requires no skill (a decent player who understands the system will utterly CRUSH a newbee and can certainly win against countries three times the power of his), but I never feel "in control" of EU4 battles. All I can do is build the best stack, pick a decent combat location and hold a reserve back if my rolls go bad. For a war game, that is a pretty shallow system. Plus: March of the Eagles has shown that it could be a lot more interesting if Pdox would put some effort into it.

    It is not like I don't enjoy EU4 (I have played more than 300 hours on the beta alone), but to me it seems that the game should have been more than a simple EU3 remake with some refined mechanics.
    ...I mean, come on Pdox, carrying over the slider events and just replacing the slider changes with event modifiers (that don't even make sense in some cases)? That's cheap!
    I guess a decent comparison for my feelings towards EU4 would be CIV5 vanilla: It worked and had some absolutely cool stuff, but apart from that it felt pretty bare-bone and could use a lot of improvement. But now that BNW is out, you look back and think "good god, I used to play THAT?!" ;)

    Yeah, I guess you are right. But to be fair, EU3 was a big step forward when compared to EU2 - and the first Clausewitz engine game, so it was more or less the foundation for all of them (and ofc none of these games were yet released on Clausewitz, so there was no comparison anyway).

    Anyway, enjoy the addon!
    :)
     
  9. Sonereal

    Sonereal ♫We got the guillotine♫ Supporter

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    I don't know about that. In CK2, I absolutely refuse to dislodge an army that is in the mountains without having significantly more troopers than the defender. Terrain plays a bigger factor simply because 30-50% losses isn't something you can easily recover from quickly.
     
  10. Yeekim

    Yeekim Moderator Moderator

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    Every time someone whines about comets in Pdox forums, I smile a bit, imagining what happened if Pdox included an event like "Framed!" in their code.
     
  11. GAGA Extrem

    GAGA Extrem Emperor

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    Oh god!
    OH GOD!
    All the supressed horrors!
    :cry:

    :D
     
  12. Zack

    Zack 99% hot gas

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    I recently bought the game, and I've been playing as Portugal for a few hours. It seems like there's nothing to do. Every once in a while, I invest in a cardinal or research a new tech, but mostly I just sit twiddling my thumbs. Am I missing something?
     
  13. Angst

    Angst Rambling and inconsistent

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    Colonize. :)
     
  14. Zack

    Zack 99% hot gas

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    The only thing I can colonize at this point is an African territory with extremely aggressive natives.
     
  15. TheDanish

    TheDanish Prince

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    I recently picked up this game and I've found it quite fun, but I do have a couple gripes.

    Other than preparing for/planning for/conducting war, there doesn't seem like much to do. I feel like buildings need a complete overhaul. The only structures I ever build on a wide scale are Temples. Occasionally I'll build other trade power/revenue buildings in key provinces (coastal, nodes, gold producers) but that's literally it.

    Diplomacy is somewhat interesting, but if you're playing a blob empire I find it essentially amounts to "find the enemy with weak/no allies and conquer them."

    Now, the game is a lot more fun if you play small nations in hotbeds of conflict and alliance networks. Europe is, of course, the most fleshed out. Portugal suffers from a "lack of things to do" because it's pretty isolated, and as long as you have a strong navy and you make friends with Castile, no one can really threaten you. Countries like Denmark/Sweden are fun because you have to deal with the ever-present threat of Muscovy's/Russia's 80,000 men.

    The Indian subcontinent, the Middle East as anyone but the Ottomans/Timurids, and Southeast Asia are also great places to play. With the last one you have the threat of the behemoth that is Ming (though unfortunately the AI doesn't seem to know how to handle the factions).

    I can't decide if the latest patch (1.4) borked everything or made things more interesting. Aggressive Expansion has been toned down, so once you overmatch anyone in your region you've essentially won, since it now takes a LOT of conquering to see a huge coalition form against you. On the other hand, fun stuff like France getting split up between Burgandy and Naples is always entertaining.
     
  16. Quintillus

    Quintillus Archiving Civ3 Content Supporter

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    (limiting the quote so it's not a wall of text)

    Some good points there. I didn't realize there were moddability differences, not having modded eitehr EU3/EU4, or CKII. And you're right about the tactics being a factor. They aren't a factor that I feel I can control very well, but that may change. I suppose at this point I haven't dug that deep into CKII, but I see where you're saying the combat can become considerably more deep than in EU3/EU4.

    The difference in levies is something I hadn't noticed much (beyond heavy cavalry); that's interesting. And the retinues I'd seen in the UI, but I always had zero. I don't have the Byzantine DLC; that must be why.
     
  17. Angst

    Angst Rambling and inconsistent

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    Set up safety network of alliances in Europe. Be on the friendly side of Spain. Perhaps campaign a bit if you want prestige.

    Transport troops to Africa, then? Hold the area, begin colonizing it. So what if the natives are aggressive? Destroy them with your army. :D Then move further south as you grow in strength. Or, of course, preferably west.
     
  18. GAGA Extrem

    GAGA Extrem Emperor

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    Armories are another must-have building, even when only fighting defensive wars. The benefit seems trivial, but most provinces have rather small base manpower, so if build everywhere it is usually equal to a 20%+ boost to your manpower pool (and the MP is modified by NIs and the like, so it will become even higher as the game goes on). Naval buildings are also pretty important and tier III is more or less vital for any naval nation.

    The factions are pretty crippling, even for a human player. I don't really like them, but I guess they are necessary (before their introduction in EU3, you often saw Ming expand all the way into India). And btw, these factions could make a great internal politics mechanic for other countries (just rename them and reduce their effects), maybe Pdox will at some point make another addon with them...

    AE can be nasty, but tbh. I never understood the whiners in the forums. You have 400 years, why do you want to conquer europe in the first 100? Is it arbitrary? Somewhat. Is it unfair because the AI targets the player more often? Yes. But if anyone of these whiners had ever played a MP game, they would have seen that this is actually a good representation of what is happening here.

    I just tested it, without the "Legacy of Rome" DLC the whole sub-menu is greyed out (and the number displayed is "0"), so I guess that's that.
    But I must admit, retinues are pretty cheesy anyway, since they are maintenance free soldiers of your choise, which is a quite significant advantage against any Civil War faction. ;)
     
  19. Angst

    Angst Rambling and inconsistent

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    People whine about AE? Lol. I remember infamy. Now that was a crap mechanic.
     
  20. germanicus12

    germanicus12 First Citizen of Rome

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    Wish I remembered to take a screenshot of a large battle fought in Paris.

    In a previous war I, playing as England, crushed France and created a PU, so my armies were stationed in France as well as England. Several decades passed, I fought and vassalized Scotland and watched as Munster won Ireland, save for Meath, which I owned. Castile and Aragon fought stalemated wars several times before Aragon got pwned by Ottomans who for some reason white peaced out. To maintain the status quo in Iberia I allied with Aragon to watch Castile.

    So before this "Great War" the alliance stood like this: (Yes I am paying a high price for having more relations than I can support)
    England -Human
    Scotland- English vassal.
    France- in PU with England.
    Aragon- Ally.
    Portugal- Ally.
    Holland- Ally.
    Papal States- Ally.

    So I was sitting beautifully, and just began the process of annexing Scotland and waiting for my king to die so I can inherit France. My king was a weak 50 year old 1-2-1 monarch who just fell ill so I was eagerly waiting for his death so my 6-5-6 heir could take control. Then my diplomat arrived with the message that Burgundy has declared war over my embargo of Burgundy. They brought with them their allies:

    Austria
    Castile
    Milan
    Venice
    and several minor German states that were vassals.

    So right off the bat my own personal English force of 24,000 was outnumbered by Burgundian and Austrian forces numbering some 50,000. But France was still feeling supportive and sent their 30,000 strong force to support my forces in Paris. (Which is still French. I moved my troops there from Caux to protect their capital.) So soon after we held the slight advantage in numbers but they had better tech. So I began to consolidate my forces, shifting 14,000 from Ireland to England and moving 22,000 from Scotland to ships waiting in Lothian. The majority of my navy was shifted to the Mediterranean where they easily dominated.

    On the mainland, 10,000 of my troops supplemented by another 20,000 French troops got caught by a 20,000 Castilian army and a battle initiated, in which French vassals poured in small numbers of reinforcements every now and then.

    At this time the main Burgundian and Austrian force now supported by their allies and vassals moved against Paris. 65,000 moves down on 53,000. Battle starts, French Vassal Orleans send 5,000 troops to Paris while my 22,000 were just shipping out of Lothian and making their way to Calais.

    Down south we managed to fight off the Castilian attack but took heavy casualties that we were forced to sit there and reinforce. So they were unable to contribute to the North. Castile though seemed to not want to make any more efforts to invade France again, so the battle in the south now saw Castile defending against invasions from both Aragon and Portugal. Eventually the army in the south will gain enough strength to move and they will invade Castile. The sooner we get them out of the war the better.

    In the island, my Irish Army has now reached London and is now tasked with protecting England, Scotland and Ireland. A tall order for an army of 14,000 and mounting war exhaustion. But they will have a smaller Royal Navy nearby to assist in transporting if needed. And good relations with Munster may keep them from declaring war any time soon.

    On the mainland, in Paris, the battle continues to rage, as reinforcements from both side continue to pour in. Venice and Milan arrived in the battle, both bringing around 10k apiece, Aragon sent up a 10k army to assist, but still the battle was going against us. Finally the fleet arrives, landing at Caux instead of Calais, the Great Prince Edward, the Heir to the throne, personally led this army to the rescue of his father, the besieged King Henry V. These 22,000 new men proved to be the deciding factor in turning the tide, the arrival of fresh English troops from the highlands of Scotland was too much for the Burgundians and Austrians, and in exhaustion they broke. But before they broke, they killed the English king, their biggest mistake in this war.

    Had Henry survived, most likely I would have sued for white peace as my manpower was near depleted and my biggest army was a shell of its former self. Instead Henry V died and Edward became King, suddenly the war transformed, Edward left behind his father's ghost of an army and took his Scottish force on rampage through Burgundy. Aided by the French he crippled the Burgundians and fought off the Austrians and Italians. As expected Castile broke apart and sued for peace, Aragon got a province and Portugal was compensated in ducats. With the southern flank secured, Milan panicked and sued for peace, they compensated France. Finally Austria WPed out leaving Burgundy+vassals and Venice alone. Burgundy finally agreed to peace, giving me my core Picardie and compensating me for my losses in Paris.

    The battle of Paris was probably one of the largest battle I ever fought in any of the EU series, easily one of my more memorable ones. Easily over 200K took part in the battle, I don't know how many were on Burgundy's side, but England and party brought to bear some 125K troops. I was surprised the battle lasted long enough for me to get my Scottish force from Scotland to Paris. Part of that may be due to France and her vassals, who kept feeding smaller armies every now and then to keep morale from killing us off. Burgundy did the same in the form of Venice and then Milan arriving mid battle, until the end Burgundy and party held every advantage. Just the timely arrival of Prince Edward and his army saved us from a humiliating defeat.
     

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