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Europe Becomes more like America everyday

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Strider, Sep 13, 2005.

  1. Marla_Singer

    Marla_Singer United in diversity

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    The thing most Parisians don't realize is that Paris is the center of a 10 million people metropolis, it's not Annecy or Cambrai !!!

    Paris represents an area of 105 square kilometers, dozens of thousands of shops, malls and boutiques, 6 million people by day and 2 million people by night. How do you want this to work without motorized vehicules ? Do you want delivery services to bring through the subway the goods you could buy in your pedestrian streets afterwards ?

    Pedestrian neighbourhoods are fine, but they can only be limited in size. And this will be the case untill we invent merchandise goods teleportation. Once again, I really have the feeling most students in Paris, and this includes the Parisians in this forum, don't have a clue about the place they are living in.

    And sincerly, how cars are that much an annoyance ? What difference would it really make if the Champs-Elysées were pedestrian ? That would kill the activity in the center of Paris, because the city cannot materially live without motorized vehicles, and for which benefits ?
     
  2. Masquerouge

    Masquerouge Chieftain

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    When I said "without cars", I should have added, without PRIVATE cars. Of course cars are needed. But the less of them, the better.

    I had this friend who live in Neuilly and who insisted on taking his car to meet us downtown for dinner or else. He was systematically late because he could not park. And when you live in Neuilly, you live close to line 1.
    That's the kind of people whose car I don't want to see in Paris anymore :)
     
  3. Akka

    Akka Moody old mage.

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    Well, is this supposed to be sarcastic too ? :hmm:
    Well, no, I couldn't tell you were sarcastic.
    There is people in this forum, that actually seriously support Creation, that actually seriously support Guantamo Bay, and actually seriously support that there is no man-made global warming.
    Considering that, I've a hard time to be sure when someone is sarcastic, and when someone is just saying crap.

    Considering you said that deflating tires without even damaging them was "not gentle" and was deserving a beating that would leave them consciousless, I thought you were actually serious about the sentence.
    Happy to see it's not the case, though.
     
  4. Masquerouge

    Masquerouge Chieftain

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    He he he. If this was really true (time is money), US lawyers would be even more filthy rich.
     
  5. Marla_Singer

    Marla_Singer United in diversity

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    You know, the suburbs don't simply consist in cités universitaires at Cergy, Sceaux or Marne-la-Vallée which are right next to a subway station. Most people in Paris area live in houses, and many of those millions of houses don't have a train or a subway station right next to them. I do understand why those people like better to get in their work by car than through 15 minutes of bus and 40 minutes of train/subway. As those guys are paying our welfare system, I think they deserve a bit more respect once in a while... even if they are middle class.

    Yeah, but the thing you didn't realize is that the subway closes at midnight. You don't care of this, the restaurant is at the bottom of your building. However, I perfectly understand your friend. And I'm sure that if you were at his place, you would behave in the exact same way as he does.
     
  6. Masquerouge

    Masquerouge Chieftain

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    It is usually a lot longer to go to work by car than by bus and/or RER if you work inside Paris. It's not much more expensive, too. And it's definitely less polluting.
    So take your car, sure, but to go to the nearest RER.
    That said, we need more parking spaces because RER stations can get cramped fast.

    And I don't get the welfare & respect point :confused: ?

    Since I did not live right on top of the restaurant and had to take the subway, I do realize subways close at midnight. Hey, in my walleet I still have the time of all the last subways by line ! So I usually take a cab, that's not very expensive if you share it.
    But you're right. We need a night-long subway system, and more cabs anyway.

    It's funny that because I said I wanted less cars in Paris, you think I'm some kind of upper-class Parisian snob ?
    And BTW Paris is one of the few cities in the world where this would be actually manageable, because the subway system is so dense (not like London, for instance)
     
  7. Marla_Singer

    Marla_Singer United in diversity

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    The thing is that you call car drivers intolerent without realizing you're not tolerent towards them.


    It's impossible in Paris to get a night-long subway. The subway works only in 2 lanes, not in 4 as in NYC. As such, the subway has to close for maintenance.

    So dense ? really ?

    Ah ok you talk about the 2 million folks living in the center. The other 8 million people have to be glad about the "RER"... and they should take their car from the RER station to their home.

    Actually, I like better the London system, at least it's more democratic. It goes in the whole urban area. It's not only about the city center as in Paris.

    Anyway, it's late and I should sleep. :)
     
  8. Elrohir

    Elrohir RELATIONAL VALORIZATION

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    I hope you mean kilometers. :eek:

    Not really sarcastic, just me using seemingly logical statements to prove my point in a amusing way.

    You need Sarcastic Help.

    I think you might want to rephrase that. "Supporting creationism" makes more sense than "supporting creation" and maybe "supporting torture at Guantanamo Bay" rather than just "supporting Guantanamo Bay" as that sounds like their a structural support for a US Navy Base.

    Well, it's not gentle, it's illegal, and doing that to my car would get them a good kick in the head at least. I explicitly said that they would still be conscious, however. Remember, I said "They would have been staring at the pavement and wondering how long they had to wait until the ambulances came to stop the bleeding." If they are staring at the pavement and wondering about something, then they are obviously conscious.
     
  9. Kosez

    Kosez Sitting Wool

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    So, they are terrorists and you are not?
    Deflating a tire is illegal and beating a hell out of a person is not?

    How can people be so aggressive these days? Deflating a tire to SUV pisses you of, torture in G. Bay doesn't?
    These people in Paris are just making their stance (which is totally legitimate, by my opinion and probably by town planners, tourists, residents, etc..., too).
     
  10. Marla_Singer

    Marla_Singer United in diversity

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    Thanks, I've corrected my post. :)
     
  11. Stapel

    Stapel FIAT 850 coupé

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    I guess SUV-owners have no problems buying/hiring a parking place.....
     
  12. Marla_Singer

    Marla_Singer United in diversity

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    Parking places are rather expensive. I don't know how it is in the Hague but in Paris intra-muros it costs often more than 150€ each month. If you want to buy it, then it's often 3000€ !!

    Owning a car is very expensive in France, I guess it's the same in the Netherlands. And taxes don't help. It seems the government believes that as long as you're a car owner, you have an unlimited budget.
     
  13. kryszcztov

    kryszcztov Chieftain

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    Why is it so ? :eek: I for one would welcome night-long metro (hey, it's not a subway here), let's say no more than 10-minute wait in each station. That would make it possible for some trains to get maintenance, since there would be less trains running at night.

    I'm in Colombes and I try to use trains and metros as much as possible, because I dislike driving in the city at peak hours and I dislike having to park my car. At night there is the Noctambus that I have never used, but that's not close to a real transportation system. Marla, there is a problem to get to Paris at night because of this. I usually end up leaving the place around 00:00 or 00:15 to get my last train, and it's stressing. But the guy in Neuilly who WILL get home before the last metro anyway should use the metro. After all, Neuilly isn't different from Paris with the metro.
     
  14. Marla_Singer

    Marla_Singer United in diversity

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    Sorry Kryszcztov, I've talked about it with RATP guys. They've explained me perfectly that it's impossible for the company to maintain the network without closing it by night. In New York City, there are 4 rail lanes in each tunnels. As such, there's always 2 rail lanes available for transit when the other 2 are in maintenance.

    The guy from the RATP explained me that as long as their will be only 2 rail lanes in Paris subway tunnels, it will be impossible to run the subway by night.

    How do you know that guy in Neuilly will get home before the last metro anyway ? Where is it written in Akka's post ? Akka has confessed he takes the taxi to get back home. Why his friend would also take the taxi when he has a car available to drive back home ?

    I'm sorry but this car-hating feeling you all have is somewhat irrational. You don't even admit a car can be useful by night. That's what I call hypocrisy.
     
  15. kryszcztov

    kryszcztov Chieftain

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    I was talking about a situation where the guy KNOWS that he will get home "early". Try to read it right please. ;) In that situation I find it stupid to take a car.

    But there is more than just no metro at night : no banlieue trains/buses at night ! And this is the real problem. If you lose the last train, then the trouble starts... Because not everyone lives in Zone 2, Marla. ;)
     
  16. Akka

    Akka Moody old mage.

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    Hu, I'm sorry ?

    I don't live in Paris, and I never took any taxi in my whole life. I'm afraid you're mixing me with someone else.
     
  17. MamboJoel

    MamboJoel Cool.

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  18. Masquerouge

    Masquerouge Chieftain

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    Yeah, with me :)

    Mmmh no. I just said I would like Paris better without cars.

    Good point. Good point :)

    1. Yes, really. I'm talking about intra muros without cars, so I'm talking specifically about the density of the subway intra muros, because it makes it easier not to have a car intra muros, as you don't have to walk too far to go to the nearest station intra muros :)

    2. Yes, since people in the suburbs have a car, they should take it to go to the nearest RER and use that to go to Paris. As I said, it's faster, cheaper and less polluting than getting stucked on the periph.

    3. I don't believe you on the London system. You're just saying that to disagree with me :) The London system is as dense to London and the London Suburbs as the RER is. Thing is, London itself do not have a subway. So basically the London system is less dense than the Paris system, no matter how you look at it. And I won't even go to reliabilities and weird shapes (try being 6'5 in a London tub)

    The only subway system that I have tried so far that could rivalize with Paris' is New York's. It's pretty dense, pretty cheap, and air conditionned ! Though it feels kind of bad knowing the amount of energy burned to maintain the AC, you've got to admit it's so nice in summer :)
     
  19. Verbose

    Verbose Chieftain

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    A bit of comparative subwaology: ;)

    The stations in the Paris metro are incredibly densely placed.
    I can at least compare Paris and Stockholm (and London, Berlin and few other places) by looking at the patterns in which people move.

    In Paris they get off the bus (rough grid) and duck down into the metro to distribute to wharever they are headed (detailed grid).
    (But then of course certain Parisians I know gripe about the slowness of the metro, how its only good for tourists etc.)

    People do exactly the opposite in Stockholm: Subway gets you in the vicinity, bus will bring you to the doorstep. :goodjob:
     
  20. The Last Conformist

    The Last Conformist Irresistibly Attractive

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    Back to the original topic, what exactly is "American" about ecopunks deflating tires?
     

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