[RD] Europe to Dictate US Citizenship Laws

We're big on extending rights you may or may not want, then charging you for them. Hell, everyone orgasms about it when it comes to healthcare penalties for behavior considered unhealthy, or self-harming, or whatever euphemism of the day moralizing sexual-self-abusers have dreamed up for motorcycle helmet laws or the like, no?
 
If you had actually read the resolution, you would have noticed that this is exactly what the resolution calls for, as the second point, no less:


It is only the last point you seem to be somehow hung up on:
Yes, that is correct. I don’t necessarily object to all of the provisions in the resolution. Which is why my focus is on the narrow issue of citizenship renunciation. It is not the right tool to the fix the problem. It isn’t even from the same toolbox.
 
Yes, that is correct. I don’t necessarily object to all of the provisions in the resolution. Which is why my focus is on the narrow issue of citizenship renunciation. It is not the right tool to the fix the problem. It isn’t even from the same toolbox.

Why don't you think this isn't a tool in the toolbox? Less dual US-EU citizens, less human rights of EU citizens violated by the US.
 
You might want to think deeply about the fact that you are trying to dictate European banking laws.


Only when they're wrong. And in fact the US can dictate other nation's banking laws. There's the thing about being the 800 pound gorilla in the room: Piss off the 800 pound gorilla at your peril. There isn't really a large back in the world that the US could not cause to cease to exist in 48 hours.

But in this case, what the US government is demanding is actually the right thing to do. Bank secrecy laws and policies are fundamentally in support of criminal activity. And not just in terms of tax evasion. And for that reason, such things should not exist.


As to the citizenship issue, little more than 1000 US citizens a year renounce their US citizenship. As compared to about half a million people a year who become naturalized citizens. And that number would be higher if it were allowed. So for every person leaving US citizenship, 500 gain it. So let's make it easier. But let's put conditions on it: You want to renounce US citizenship, CYA. But you must liquidate all US property, and you may never own property in the US again, and you may never set foot in the US again. At any time, for any reason.

There are people who renounce US citizenship for the simple reason of any immigrants to a new place, as that they have committed to living someplace else. But there's quite a few who would do so, if it were easier, simply as tax cheating. They want to go, go. But pay the price.
 
Cayman Islands, means, of course, the City.

The resolution wants to comprehensively solve the problem. One part of that is to regulate banks. Another part is to implore the US to end this insidious practice to make it extremely hard to renounce American citizenship for people who have never lived, worked or studied in America, who don't have any of the US identification numbers, might have limited English language skills, and whose children cannot apply for US citizenship. Those people aren't Americans at all, except for having an American parent and the US only considers them citizens, because it may be able to extract tax money from them.

Funny that the US gets criticized both for not granting citizenship, and for not revoking citizenship. And for allegedly setting up a task force to study how to revoke citizenship.

This whole thing would be a non-problem if countries had bothered to support their own sovereignty. Will be bothered. A nation needs not the authorization of another for taking on citizens and letting them have services. It is the voluntary international entanglements of corporations that opens a way for states to put pressure on other states. and those other state's subservience to the "needs" of "their" own internationalized corporations that enables this.
 
If US law is imposing onerous requirements on European financial institutions who wish to deal with European citizens, then it is perfectly reasonable for the EU to negotiate that matter with the US. It is not 'dictating' US policy to seek a negotiation on the terms of US laws, anymore than any international agreement which touches upon domestic policy is 'dictating' that policy. One can argue that increasing the ease of renouncing US citizenship isn't the right solution, but that's about the substance of the negotiations, not whether they should take place at all.
 
So let's make it easier. But let's put conditions on it: You want to renounce US citizenship, CYA. But you must liquidate all US property, and you may never own property in the US again, and you may never set foot in the US again. At any time, for any reason.

That sounds...excessive. Why won't you just let people go? Obviously, by renouncing their citizenship, they would lose the rights of an US citizen. But why couldn't you treat them as a regular foreigner instead of some kind of traitor to a country that was never theirs to begin with?

It sounds like you are insulted for people no longer wanting to e US citizens and want to exact revenge because of that.
 
But you must liquidate all US property, and you may never own property in the US again, and you may never set foot in the US again. At any time, for any reason.

And you are definitely not allowed to be a member of a political party that is
lax in keeping "real" names on their books so they can circumvent rules because
that would not be playing by the rules dagnabit!
 
BvBPL:

I think I lost something in translation. Are the EU banks complaining that the US regulations (over their own citizens) too onerous, and thus causing the EU banks to refuse certain customer classes? Wouldn't then the fastest step be to cut away at the underlying cause of those regulations?

It strike me as an attempt to compete with the 'race to the bottom', which we all hate. OTOH, the US regulations might actually be too onerous. Or some combination of the two.
 
Funny that the US gets criticized both for not granting citizenship, and for not revoking citizenship.
So the US is being criticised for having obtuse and inflexible citizenship laws, and for having obtuse and inflexible citizenship laws. Not seeing the grand hypocrisy, there.

So let's make it easier. But let's put conditions on it: You want to renounce US citizenship, CYA. But you must liquidate all US property, and you may never own property in the US again, and you may never set foot in the US again. At any time, for any reason.
I appreciate that "this sounds like something Trump would say" would say is a very poor rebuttal, but this really does sound like something Trump would say.
 
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If US law is imposing onerous requirements on European financial institutions who wish to deal with European citizens, then it is perfectly reasonable for the EU to negotiate that matter with the US. It is not 'dictating' US policy to seek a negotiation on the terms of US laws, anymore than any international agreement which touches upon domestic policy is 'dictating' that policy. One can argue that increasing the ease of renouncing US citizenship isn't the right solution, but that's about the substance of the negotiations, not whether they should take place at all.
The question of whether or not FATCA regulations are onerous is an interesting one. Certainly, banks will say they are. However, when you consider that banks will complain about any compliance requirement, that FATCA is functionally identical to the European-driven CRS scheme, and that nations that have put resources into FATCA and CRS compliance generally have experienced smooth rides, the complaint that FATCA requirements are particularly onerous seems a bit faulty. It might instead be looking at how enforcement of FATCA and CRS differs to see why European banks are complaining about FATCA. We might find the real compliant is not about the regulation itself, but about how good the US is at enforcing it.

Banks think FATCA compliance is onerous. Of course they do. Mine owners think safety regulations are onerous; factory management thinks union contracts are onerous. Everybody thinks the regulations and external obligations with which they must comply for the benefit of others are onerous. Boo hoo. Take what the claims of interested parties that something is grotesque burden upon their businesses with a grain of salt, particularly when the regulation in question is designed to rein in things like tax avoidance schemes.

More informative is whether FATCA is relatively more burdensome than its sister, the European-driven Common Reporting Standard (CRS). It isn’t. CRS is based on FATCA. From the perspective of banks conducting this form of reporting, CRS is functionally the same as FATCA. The differences in reporting and compliance responsibilities can be counted on two hands, and even then you’d still be able to operate a pair of chopsticks. So if FATCA reporting is onerous then so too is CRS. To put it another way, if the EP thinks that FATCA is a step too far then it should also be calling for changes in CRS. But it isn’t, so we can assume that CRS isn’t onerous which means FATCA isn’t onerous either. For the EP to condemn the US’s FATCA system for its reporting obligations while tacitly permitting CRS is hypocritical.

Europe isn’t monolithic in its response to FATCA, so it’s worth examining what some countries have done. The ministries of finance for some European countries, like Ireland, the United Kingdom, and Luxembourg, have jumped feet-first into this stuff. As a result, these nations have high rates of compliance from their banks for FATCA and CRS reporting (collectively called AEOI reporting). The ministries of finance and their analogs in these nations have promulgated regulations to support AEOI, disseminated information to affected banks, and establish the information technology infrastructure to conduct AEOI reporting. All that graft has paid off with good rates of compliance for their banking sectors. This compliance has allowed the UK’s HMRC, for example, to obtain a vastly superior understanding of the overseas assets held by British citizens then was possible ten years ago, which, in turn, permits more effective tax administration. So the countries that buy into AEOI reporting, including FATCA, will reap the dividends of superior tax administration thereby serving the public good far more than noncompliance ever would.

So let’s not be too hasty in condemning FATCA for being onerous. Those complaints aren’t coming from neutral, disinterested parties but rather from those have a vested interest in not spending money on compliance costs. Where the EP has singled out FATCA, we should be skeptical because the same complaint about compliance costs can be laid at the door of CRS. What’s more, compliance with AEOI manifestly serves the citizenry by making the administration of tax laws more effective and efficient and thereby helping to ensure that a few bad eggs cannot easily evade their tax responsibilities.

You may be wondering now why banks and the EP are complaining about FATCA in particular if the compliance requires are appreciably the same as those of CRS. I submit that the primary concern is not about how hard it is comply with FATCA, but how effective the US is enforcing the law.

The US is tops in tax administration, particularly and especially for federal taxation. It has some of the best and most effective tax administration of any nation. This is not to say that the US’s tax rules are fair, or correct, or right (you can make very good cases that they are not). Rather, the US is excellent at applying those rules to taxable parties. The US’s rate of tax compliance are the highest in the world.*

That effectiveness is reflected in the enforcement of FATCA. Permit me to explain first how CRS enforcement works to better establish the contrast with FATCA. If a French bank does not report to Denmark the holdings of a Dane as required by CRS then the French bank could be subject to fines from the French government. Denmark doesn’t have any direct recourse against the French bank directly, it would need to go through the French government to do anything at all to bring the bank into compliance. If the French government was recalcitrant in regulating its banks then Denmark could go to the OECD to black list France for noncompliance, but that’s really for only when a government is being a serious burden to the scheme; one bank not giving up information wouldn’t justify that.

So let’s say this non-reporting French bank also has a US account holder, and it isn’t reporting to the US either. Again, the bank would be subject to fines from the French government, but the US could also withhold 30% of US-sourced income paid into that bank, right off the top. That income isn’t gone, it’s just held by the IRS until account holders can prove its theirs, but it’s a huge stick to wave against the bank. All US-sourced income paid to all of the bank’s account holders gets held because of the bank’s non-compliance. And again, the US has the most effective tax administration on the planet so the IRS is more likely to find out about non-compliance other governments.

I believe that’s why we’re seeing pushback against FATCA, not because the cost of compliance are any higher than CRS but because the US is way better are tracking down banking ne’er-do-wells and has the stick to hit them in the pocketbook.

To reiterate what I’ve discussed before, where any of this is a problem, the problems are best addressed through nations improving their banking laws rather than attacking US citizenship laws. Probably the best solution is to do what the HMRC has down and leverage AEOI reporting to improve tax efficiency and crackdown on evaders, but it might be simpler to simply ensure banking services are available to all citizens, even those holding dual citizenship with the US.

I hope this provides helpful information on the topic at hand.


*It is true that US total dollars in taxes evaded are also among the highest in the world, but that is a reflection of the enormous size of the US economy, the biggest in the world. To give you an example, the US has a GDP of $19.39 trillion. Germany, the largest European economy, has a GDP of $3.68 trillion, about 20% the size of the US economy. The US has a total tax loss, that is taxes evaded, of $337.3 billion; Germany of $215 billion. If Germany was of the same economic size as the US, it would have a tax loss of $1.07 trillion, almost four times that of the US. Germany, for what it’s worth, also has an effective tax administration system relative to the rest of the world. Most countries are less effective than Germany.


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BvBPL:


I think I lost something in translation. Are the EU banks complaining that the US regulations (over their own citizens) too onerous, and thus causing the EU banks to refuse certain customer classes? Wouldn't then the fastest step be to cut away at the underlying cause of those regulations?
I’m not sure I fully understand your question in that I’m not sure who is taking that fastest step. Assuming you’re talking about the banks then, yes, the fastest step to compliance with FATCA is to purge your US account holders. But that’s not a great idea because it denies banking services to nationals with dual US citizenship. The EP is right that this issue needs to be addressed, but it is best addressed through better domestic banking laws, not through saying US citizenship laws should change.
 
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Where are you getting those lost tax revenue stats? According to this UN report, the US loses about 1.13% of GDP. Germany is 0.42%, Australia 0.41%, Italy 0.26%, Canada 0.19%, Finland 0.11%...
 
I was working from the Tax Justice Network’s report on the matter.

The point I was trying to make about the effectiveness of the FATCA penalties when contrasted with CRS remains valid even divorced from discussion of the general effectiveness of tax administrations across nations. FATCA simply has a more effective means of enforcement than CRS, and I believe the effectiveness of that enforcement is a key reason why it sticks in the craw of European banks.

Not having fully read the UN report you reference, I note it is about tax avoidance, not evasion. Those are distinct terms. Evasion is about using illegal means to hide money from the tax man. Avoidance is about using ostensibly legal means to minimize tax liability through things like profit shifting to more favorable tax jurisdictions. Evasion speaks directly to the effectiveness of the taxation agencies; policies that permit avoidance are more about the fairness of the tax laws themselves. Evasion is universally recognized as bad, and there is a strong, growing understanding that avoidance practices are also harmful.

Regarding the difference, see this from the UN report's introduction:
The authors use panel data for 173 countries over 33 years to explore the magnitude and nature of international fiscal externalities—specifically, the spillovers from tax policy decisions in individual jurisdictions onto others.
Tax policy is about what should or should not be taxed; its opposite is tax avoidance. Tax effectiveness is about how good the taxman is at actually taxing stuff, as opposed to tax evasion.

Taken together, one could say that the US is very good at enforcing some not very good tax laws. But I don’t want to get too far away from AEOI and FATCA in particular, which is a good system to fight evasion and helps with avoidance. Unlike most of the US’s tax laws, FATCA is something that European governments like and emulate.

Hope that's helpful and edifying.
 
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Hmm. 14% of the Australian economy being the shadow economy and tax evasion seems... incredibly high. Like an order of magnitude too high.

In a $1.7 trillion economy it'd be about $240 billion. It would mean that in average, 14% of people's earnings were happening off the books, or 14% of purchases not being subject to GDP, or people understating income or overstating expenses by 14% on average on their tax forms. I just can't see it.

And I note that the ABS estimates the underground economy to be about 1.5% of GDP ($20bn in 2011) and that the analysts KPMG put it at $32bn this year.

I can't explain the difference in method but the WB approach seems way off in Australia at least.
 
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In a $1.7 trillion economy it'd be about $240 billion. It would mean that in average, 14% of people's earnings were happening off the books, or 14% of purchases not being subject to GDP. I can't see it.

I dunno, I find it fairly easy to believe that. According to this the average size of the informal economy in the OECD countries they looked at was 18% of GNI.
Actually, I'm not sure, but I think the reason the UN report linked has such lower estimates of loss revenue is that it's only looking at revenue lost from corporate income tax, whereas BvBPL's source is a more comprehensive look that includes the informal economy as tax-avoidance.
 
Application of the ABS report to the whole economy might give a slightly skewed picture relative to many other nations because of Australia’s tax policies. Australia has a relatively high income taxation rate and a relatively low VAT/GST rate when contrasted with similarly developed nations. The ABS report focuses on transactions that aren’t captured by GST, but doesn’t say much about income tax avoidance. The World Bank report can be helpful because it takes a holistic approach to many forms of taxation: income, production, and labor. Where income tax makes up about twice the revenue that GST does, the larger than expected shadow economy profile seen in the World Bank report might come from income tax evasion, rather than GST issues. It also wouldn’t surprise me if Australia sees a fair amount of evasion of natural resource royalty taxation, which might not be captured by the ABS report.

But that’s just my off-the-cuff take.
 
I dunno, I find it fairly easy to believe that. According to this the average size of the informal economy in the OECD countries they looked at was 18% of GNI.
Actually, I'm not sure, but I think the reason the UN report linked has such lower estimates of loss revenue is that it's only looking at revenue lost from corporate income tax, whereas BvBPL's source is a more comprehensive look that includes the informal economy as tax-avoidance.
You might say that the UN report describes bad tax policies rather than bad tax enforcement. The UN report assumes that good taxation policy taxes profits where they are earned, rather than where the resulting income is stored. The US looks bad in that report because it has relatively porous borders when it comes to moving profits in and out of the country.
 
Both the EU and the USA seem to think that the solution to tax avoidance is to
introduce yet more bureaucratic regulation and impose that on everyone else.

More specifically as I see it the EU banks are worried that US courts may find them
guilty of breaching US regulations re money laundering and apply punitive penalties.

This is not an unreasonable concern bearing in mind:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-20673466

The logical solution is for the banks to set up a separate company to do business
in each different country and comply with its legislation only, and for those individual
countries legislatures to prohibit courts from enforcing damages and penalties imposed
by third party states upon banks that are not trading in those third party states.
 
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