European Middle Ages 500-1500 AD

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Modpacks' started by hr_oskar, Jun 5, 2006.

  1. Starship

    Starship Warlord

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    Just curious...Are you planning on actually posting your mod? Maybe this should be in creation and customization?
     
  2. hr_oskar

    hr_oskar Deity

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    Yes I am, and sorry to keep you waiting.

    Probably I'm too much of a perfectionist and I certainly don't have as much time to work on this as I really would like. And well, this kind of mod is very time-consuming.

    Right now I'm setting up the WBS, the mod itself is stable and playable. I'll need to upload it through 3DDownloads, which as you know takes a day or two to confirm new files. Whatever I post will just be a "beta" version, of course.
     
  3. Craig_Sutter

    Craig_Sutter Deity

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    I was just thinking about how you might include the inquisition. Could it be done as a national wonder (Torqumada's Dungeon ?). Buildable once (I figure that most civs only had about one real inquisition, the rest was just a regular battle agains heresy, which Theocracy simulates).

    Effects - city populations go down one pop point for each non-state religion. They migrate (Randomly?) to cities in nearby civs (ie the Hugonauts (sic.)). One population point will be removed from the smallest city first, then one from the next and so on, until 90% of the population are the state religion (this has the effect of leaving some non-state religions in the larger cities). The civ recieves some amount of money from the diaspora as property is confiscated from the non-state religion refugees, maybe X gold pieces per pop point. Non-state religious buildings are demolished and contribute money to the coffers of the government when this happens. Wonders are not destroyed. Possible unhappiness and hit to science. All this is one-shot. Thereafter, buildings of all faiths can be built as normal.

    Buildable only with Theocracy Civic in place. State Religion must be over 50% but under 90% of the total population.

    Perhaps there could also be a great wonder, the Grand Inquisition, with the same effects, but allowing for a second inquisition as the national wonder.

    Just some ideas.
     
  4. hr_oskar

    hr_oskar Deity

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    I want to apologize to the moderators for having posted this thread without my file ready for download. I simply didn't notice that particular rule and I thought I'd seen a similar thread on this forum. So if this is an annoyance to the moderators here, then I won't mind them moving the thread to Creation & Customization.

    Anyway, I'll still be uploading the file very soon so it's really just a matter of days. I'm writing this because I just don't want to be stressed about it anymore, afterall I have a wife and a job and only about an hour per day to work on this stuff. So I hope you all understand.

    If you haven't noticed, I posted some screenshots on page one.

    @Craig Sutter:
    Thank you for your suggestions Craig, I really do need to try out that mercenaries mod, which seems to be the likeliest candidate. As for the inquisitor and assassin mods you mention, well I haven't tried them, but like you I'm not really interested in any kind of "fantasy" features - no super inquisitors wrecking cities please. Seriously, those guys really didn't kill that many people.
     
  5. Shqype

    Shqype Shqyptar

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    hr_oskar, very nice tech tree you've got there ... think you could help me on mine? :p

    PS - do you need any help with this project? If you PM me with some specific requests I'll let you know if I'm able to lend a hand...
     
  6. Craig_Sutter

    Craig_Sutter Deity

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    About the Inquisitors... I agree they didn't really kill that many people... however, I think they may have driver people out of the country, or converted very many. For instance, the jews and muslims in Spain... they were largely driven out, or converted. That is why I had pop go down in cities... but had it go up in adjacent, friendly Civs. Such populations that were forcabley moved were of great benefit to their new countries... the Hugoenauts who left France, for instance, were instrumental in Holland and the development of manufacturing in the form of the wool industry... very important to later developments in commerce and industry. The jews and muslims who left Spain, at one time the location of the most advanced islamic culture, likely brought great benefit to the places they fled to (although I am only speculating on this).

    I, too, do not wish for fantasy units... I mentioned the assassins mod in the context that I do not like it.

    I wouldn't get to stressed out about releasing the mod. If the mods move the thread, they move the thread... I'm certain that no one is truly irritated about it. As for how long it takes to get out... I'd not stress about that, either... I've had several scenarios in an incomplete state for a rather long time... each of Civ II, III and IV currently have unfinished works in progress that I've never gotten to the point of releasing. Civ V might come out before I finish the current ones:crazyeye: . People will be satisfied whenever, and in whatever condition, the mod finally comes out. They appreciate the effort, and are happy that those of us with the creativity to do so are able to put out such interesting material.

    As always, anxious to see your work (but not too anxious, don't get stressed :) ).
     
  7. hr_oskar

    hr_oskar Deity

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    Thanks Shqype - yeah, I will need some help, especially with graphics. I was going to post a list of requested graphics but realized it was pretty much the same as documenting a list of everything featured in the scenario. So if you're interested, you might as well check out the documentation section on p. 1 - basically anything mentioned there which isn't in vanilla Civ4, needs new graphics and I haven't done anything about it.

    Craig, thank you for the kind words, and about the inquisitors I think we agree more or less. What I'd been thinking about doing gameplay-wise, was to implement some mod which allows religions to be eliminated from cities by a unit action. Thus there'd be "Zealots" who "persecute", just as "Missionaries" "spread". I prefer a more general term for the units, hence Zealot, because persecutions occured in many times and places independently of the later inquisitions.
     
  8. hr_oskar

    hr_oskar Deity

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    Ok I've been doing a little thinking on the problem of what civs to feature. There are clearly too many nations and regions in Europe that justifiably demand representation. Yet I want one "standard game" scenario which obviously cannot have more than 18 civs.

    My solution is to have two "scales"; the mod will have all the nations that warrant inclusion programmed with their own CivType and city list etc, but it will also have some additional civs which are meant to represent groups of nations. Thus I will have Germany (HRE) as a CivType but also Saxony, Franconia, Austria, etc etc. Then scenario-makers will have the more exact nations available as CivTypes, as well as the "super civs" for greater abstraction on larger maps.

    I've updated the first post's list of civs to reflect my new plan. Note the many additions to the "long" list.
     
  9. Craig_Sutter

    Craig_Sutter Deity

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    I don't know if you want to add the Anglo-Saxons to your long list or not... they could be included as Saxons, I suppose. Their "civ" lasted for 1/2 the length of your scenario, until the Normans incorporated it. Leaders would be Alfred the Great and Harald Godwinson. Alfred would be organized/industrious(?)(replaced with Protective when Warlords comes out) and Harald organized/commercial(?)(commercial because England was one of the richest European states at that time). UU would be Fyrdsman or Huscarle.

    For the Viking UU, which you've called Viking, Hersir may be an appropriate name. Will you be including a "longboat" unit of some sort, or will they fall under the catch-all "galley" designation. If you were to make the longboat a viking UU, instead of a ground unit, what I'd do would be to give +1 movement, and somehow give all melee units carried by the ship the amphibious promotion temporarily - I don't know how this would be done, but do know that mods have been able to give such situational promotions as this in other mods.

    Your idea for the inquisitor/zealot is good. My concern would be that the AI recognize how to use the unit. It would be like a missionary in some respects, but only act within the countries own border... possibly only buildable during Theocracy (or whatever is the equivalent civic in your mod). Unlike missionaries, it would travel to cities that have both the state religion and other religions and have some %chance of "converting" or driving out the other religion(s)-this is where I wonder if the AI can handle it because the activity is in someway opposite of missionaries logic. The inquisitors mod is very similar to this, but I'm unfamiliar with how that works.

    Just my 2 cents on a couple of things.
     
  10. mice

    mice Moose

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    I dont see a maceman in the tech tree. Are there macemen in the mod ?
     
  11. hr_oskar

    hr_oskar Deity

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    I probably will add the Anglo-Saxons... once I add the Franks, Vandals, Visigoths, etc. I might add that batch of early medieval kingdoms later on since they're likely to be used in scenarios and could probably use their own CivType, UU, city list, leaders, etc.

    Note that I'm not using the vanilla traits; I have Alfred the Great already and I think that he's currently a Wise Architect. I might add a Defender trait which I would then give to Alfred most definitely.

    Actually "Viking" is not at all inappropriate for the UU. It's much rather inappropriate for the civ name, since not all Norse were Vikings. In Old Norse the term "Viking" referred only to warriors occupied with coastal raids, it was never used to identify the people of Scandinavia themselves. They were Danes, Swedes, Geates, Norwegians, Icelanders, etc. All together they were "Norroenir menn" - simply "Northerners". "Hersir" means warlord rather than some type of warrior.

    I'll probably be adding a Longboat unit, yes, to replace the Galley for the "Vikings" (and Danes, Norwegians and Swedes). For now the promotion is on the land unit but the other solution might be interesting.

    Yeah, the AI probably wouldn't be able to handle persecutions... but then anything more complicated than that would be even harder for the AI to use. The AI hardly seems to understand the basic missionaries anyway, though. Well, I hope this works out later, anyway I'm not adding the Zealots until later.
     
  12. hr_oskar

    hr_oskar Deity

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    No, there are no Macemen. What's a Maceman anyway? The unit has very little basis in the history of warfare AFAICS.

    I might add Halberdiers and/or Foot Knights as some kind of late heavy infantry (apart from the Pikeman of course, which is already there).
     
  13. Bastian-Bux

    Bastian-Bux King

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    About Germany: you are right that you can't represent the multitude of tribes that made up Germany and that partly are still recognicable today.

    BUT:

    The german speaking areas of Europe are actually two cultures, two languages, two religions.

    The northern part, "Niederdeutsche" have been speaking Niederdeutsche dialects, have been culturing a rather germanic culture, with many influences from the otehr baltic/germanic countries. Later on this area should become protestant.

    The southern part was strongly influenced by the romanic roots to the south and west, was speaking Hochdeutsche dialects, and remained faithfull to the catholic (austrian Kaiser. Oh yes, you'd have to subsume Austria with the south germans.

    Where is the border? Well, there IS some overlap of course.

    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...rten.PNG/800px-Heutige_deutsche_Mundarten.PNG

    The yellow part are the north-german dialects, the brown parts are the south-german dialects. The cyan part is the overlap, or middel-german dialects.

    For a middle age mod you'd probably have to add Bohemia to the south german "empire", so to counteract that added cities you might give more of the middle-german parts to north-germany.

    It all depends on how you are planning to use the civs. Even in 750, 250 years after the start of your mod you couldn't talk of "Germany" at all.

    Actually, Chlodwig would be a VERY good marker for differences: Chlodwig did choose the catholic Christian denomination, while all other germanic kings (including the few saxonian christians) have been arianians.

    So if you want to use the starting situation to name your civs, then you should use: East-Gothians for Spain, Merowingians for France (and small parts of Germany), Saxonians for most of todays northern Germany, Bavarians for the south. If you don't care about the start situation, use North-Germans and South-Germans. Charles the Great... couldn't be counted to either, as his empire was formed prior to that language/culture drifts finalisation.
     
  14. mice

    mice Moose

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    This mod looks really good. Cant wait.
    What was the composition of a typical army of the early and the late period?
    What kind of armies will we be building to go for something like historical accuracy ??
     
  15. alireza1354

    alireza1354 Emperor

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    Ok where to download?
     
  16. Zeusius

    Zeusius Chieftain

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    You can tell you put alot of time and effort into this, researching etc. Very nicely done. I have been looking for a Crusades mod and this has the same flavor.
     
  17. Nikolaj Romanov

    Nikolaj Romanov Chieftain

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    Hmm I don't know wether the "German question" is already solved but considering that this mod is focused on 500-1500 I would vote for an united Germany since between the division of Charlemagne's Empire and the decline of Imperial authority within HRE in the 13/14th century it was (at least in comparison to it's neighbours) fairly centralized the first blow to Imperial authority was the conflict about the Investiture of Bishops between the Emperor and the Pope but it was not untill the death of Frederick II von Hohenstaufen and the following time of instability that the several countys and duchys were becoming quasi-independent political entietys.

    I would also vote to keep Germany/German Kingdom/Kingdom of Germany as name and introduce the "Holy Roman Empire" as a wonder wich could be build by any central European Nation gaining some sort of support by the pope and control over Italy (If this wonder would be introduced it should also a relation hit with Byzantium as negative consequence since the Roman Emperor in Constantinople was never happy with having a rival for claim on the Imperial title of Rome)

    My proposed startdate would be the year 840 when Charlemagne's Empire was splitted between Western, Middle and Eastern Francia with Middle Francia represented by a Minor Civilisation since it would spare you the difficulty of representing the formation and the final breakup of the Frankish Empire
     
  18. Craig_Sutter

    Craig_Sutter Deity

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    I hope it isn't started so late as 840 AD. I've been thinking of doing the whole Frankish Empire as a sort of locked alliance that would disappear as the parts of the whole went their seperate ways. Call them Neustria and Ostria (sic), and have the forced alliance split with aquisition of some sort of tech... That's how I may do it in a scenario... not perfectly realistic, but a simulation of what happened.

    Also, scenario makers are interested in all matter of civs before the start date you propose... don't knock off a third of the proposed scenario length just to handle the breakup of Charlemagne's empire. I'm certain that there are enough eras that if you wish to start at such a date, and make a scenario with the divisions you propose, you can do it. Just start at a later era, and locate the civs from the proposed mix on a map of your chosing.

    Also, why restrict the HRE to just central Europe... wasn't Charlemagne declared, in effect, the Emporer... he certainly had more of a west Europe base than newly conquered central European portions of his Empire. I would think any Catholic Civ with at least a portion of its territory in the former Roman Empire could lay claim (with some sort of Papal agreement). Let's not be overly restrictive, historically. There needs to be some sort of balance, I suppose.

    Anyway, I'm for as broad a coverage of the period as possible, with plenty of options maintained for scenario makers.
     
  19. Kommari

    Kommari Chieftain

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    Nice mod btw, but i can't find Finland from that list. Well, our nation did not exist on that age as we were part of sweden until the 1808 if i remember right when we went to russia. Well there's also Sweden and Norway which were one and same nation until 1901 if i remember correct. Yes, were part of Sweden from 1200 to 1808. But good luck to mod.
     
  20. hr_oskar

    hr_oskar Deity

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    Good news guys :) - The mod's finally playable, roughly speaking. I just uploaded my v0.1 to 3D Downloads, hopefully those interested can try it out around thursday.

    Of course there are lots of loose ends and you can trust that there's still a long way ahead polishing and balancing this stuff.

    Known technical issues:
    • I'm having trouble with forest-chopping - it's not yielding any production, for some unknown reason
    • I'm getting CTD's sometimes; I'm certain it's a memory issue, but then my computer doesn't actually meet Civ4's hardware requirements. It may help if I fix the Civ4CityLSystem.xml file, which I recently discovered to be referring to some vanilla building types (BUILDING_BROADWAY etc), but strangely not causing any error on launch.

    Glad to see the discussion here. What I want to make clear about the whole "which civs to include" issue, is that I don't wish to take any stand in the mod itself; the mod is meant to be inclusive at all times rather than exclusive. I will try to include a fairly long list of nations and civilizations that could be desired for mod and would need their own xml entry for purposes of starting techs, unique units, city list, etc. In fact, once people start making scenarios, I might add civs to the mod on request, if they prove to be needed.
     

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