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European UHV overhaul

Discussion in 'Rhye's and Fall - Dawn of Civilization' started by Leoreth, Apr 24, 2012.

  1. Leoreth

    Leoreth 心の怪盗団 Moderator

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    I've mentioned several times that I plan to change most European civs, especially their UHVs. I mainly delayed this to turn Italy into a normal civ before, but that's almost done now. I'm uncertain about certain aspects so I thought I put them up to discussion first (sometimes I'll mention more than three goals, of course it will be only three in the end).

    VIKINGS
    UP changes: additional gold from pillaging, conquering cities and sinking ships
    UHV:
    • Control the core of another European civ in 1050 AD
    • Found a city in America by 1100 AD
    • Accumulate 3000 gold by pillaging, conquering cities and sinking ships by 1500 AD
    • Have 5000 gold in 1500 AD

    SPAIN
    • Be first to found a city in America
    • Acquire a total of 10 gold or silver resources by 1650 AD
    • Have the largest empire in the world in 1760 AD

    FRANCE
    • Make Paris a city of legendary culture by 1700 AD Have 25000 culture in Paris by 1700 AD
    • Control or vassalize 50% of Europe and North America in 1800 AD
    • Build Notre Dame, Versailles, Statue of Liberty and the Eiffel Tower by 1900 AD

    ENGLAND
    • Colonize North America (5), Asia (5), Africa (4), South America (3) and Australia (3) by 1730 AD [required cities in brackets]
    • Have a fleet of 25 ships frigates and ships of the line and sink 50 enemy ships by 1800 AD
    • Be first to enter the Industrial and Modern eras

    RUSSIA
    • Settle 10 7 Siberian cities by 1700 AD
    • Be first to finish the Apollo Program and Manhattan project and build the Trans-Siberian Railway by 1920 AD
    • Have friendly relations with 5 communist civilizations by 1950 AD
    • Control 50 ICBMs by 1970 AD

    ITALY
    UP change: +10% GPP per city culture level OR +1 free specialist if City States is changed (see below)
    UB change: +25% culture instead of extra happiness
    UHV:
    • Build San Marco Basilica, Leaning Tower and Sistine Chapel by 1500 AD
    • Have three cities with influential culture in by 1600 AD
    • Control 75% of the Mediterranean in 1930 AD
    • Control Ethiopia, North Africa and the Balkans in 1930 AD
    • Be first to discover Banking, Education, Patronage, Electricity, Fascism
    • Be first to discover all Medieval, Renaissance and Industrial techs[that is, not the first to all of them individually, but the first who has all of them together]

    NETHERLANDS
    • Be first to have complete map of the world
    • Settle three great merchants in Amsterdam by 1745 AD
    • Acquire 7 spice resources by 1775 AD
    • Conquer 7 European colonies by 1800 AD

    On the City States change I've mentioned: I've realized that giving benefits for closely founded cities that are also beneficial for widely spaced cities doesn't make much sense. So I thought what closely placed cities lack, and that's tiles to work (obviously), and therefore, food. So I thought a better effect would be to give a city +1 food for every specialist that exceeds the number of worked land tiles.

    I'm also a little torn on Italy's UHV. It should encourage the use of all types of great people, and represent the areas in which Italy was advanced, like Banking, Patronage and Education (hence the tech goal idea, which also represents Industrial Italy). The wonder goal is nice because it requires exactly those techs and would also use some great engineers to get them built in time. The drawback is that it doesn't cover later Italy.

    Comments welcome.
     
  2. strijder20

    strijder20 Wallowing in irony

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    Uhm...
    With nerfed GAs and a spawn date at 840 AD? I don't think that is remotely possible to achieve...

    I suggest you make that 'almost complete' map of the world, since you need Submarines/Satellites to explore Antartica/North Pole completely, IIRC.

    City-state change you suggested is very original for sure. Will work very well too in high-food Mediterranean, and not that much elsewhere (although China could make use of it too, I guess).

    Still, 'exceeding the number of worked tiles?' I suggest you make that exceeding [the number of worked tiles -1/2].
     
  3. Tomorrow's Dawn

    Tomorrow's Dawn Heroes Never Die

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    At first, I had some concerns about the impossibility of the 2nd Russian goal, then I realized, it extends to vassals too, doesn't it?
     
  4. iOnlySignIn

    iOnlySignIn Prince$s

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    I like the following, because they are all very interesting changes/challenges.
    I dislike the following:
    10 cities in Siberia sucks - 7 cities is OK, I can even find 8 sensible city spots, but 10? No way. Not unless you modify the map to give Siberia the realistic amount of resources (Fur, Oil, Timber). Just compare how few Fur resources there are in Russia with how many there are in Canada - it's absurdly unrealistic.

    Ethiopia sucks. It could have been salvageable with sensible city placements, but not with Zara spamming cities 2 tiles from each other in the middle of Deserts and Swamps away from Coasts and Rivers. What is the point of controlling Ethipia if the first thing I'm going to do after the UHV date is to gift it away to whoever wants it?

    Having 5 Communist civs in 1950 is nigh impossible, let alone having Friendly relations with 5. Especially with the late date of 1950 (and the other one: 1970? Seriously?), it would be far easier to go for Space Race, or even Domination.

    Having the complete map of the world is even more tedious and pointless than having the largest map of the world. If this is RFC: DoC RAND, it would be very interesting. But it is not. There is no joy exploring a map that I already know inside out. None.

    Edit: per TD's post, yes for the Russian Communist goal you can force your Vassals to adopt State Property, but only when you have State Property yourself. That means that this Russia UHV is unwinnable unless Russia is Communist itself.

    IMO it is NEVER a good idea to pigeonhole certain civs into certain civics - a point made obvious from the links in my signature.
     
  5. iOnlySignIn

    iOnlySignIn Prince$s

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    Suggestions:

    Russia:
    - Control 10 cities in Asia in a certain year (1800?). This allows diverse gameplay. You can settle/invade Siberia/Central Asia/Mongolia/China/Japan/Middle East, all of which are historical.

    - (Be the first to) Build the Apollo Program, Manhattan Project, Lubyanka, and Three Gorges Dam.

    Italy:
    - Control directly or through Vassals 80% of the Mediterranean in 1930 AD.

    Netherlands:
    - Have a larger empire than England or Portugal in 1800 AD.
     
  6. Tomorrow's Dawn

    Tomorrow's Dawn Heroes Never Die

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    The Apollo Program and The Manhattan Project I understand, but Russia never competed with China nor America to build a dam.
    I understand one is invariably going to build it anyway, so I think it's a little moot.
     
  7. Fresol

    Fresol Angry Halfling in Green

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    Three Gorges Dam? Please no, it doesn't make sense at all.

    The first one makes sense. Colonizing Siberia with 10 cities is too much.
     
  8. iOnlySignIn

    iOnlySignIn Prince$s

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    No, it is you who should learn more about Russian history.

    The Soviet Union was the world leader in hydroelectric power, long before China.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_building_sites_of_communism

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sayano–Shushenskaya_Dam

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bratsk_hydroelectric_plant

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krasnoyarsk_hydroelectric_dam

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ust-Ilimsk_Hydroelectric_Power_Station

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volga_Hydroelectric_Station

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhiguli_Hydroelectric_Station
     
  9. Fresol

    Fresol Angry Halfling in Green

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  10. iOnlySignIn

    iOnlySignIn Prince$s

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    3 of those listed Hydro Plants were the largest in the world in terms of power output when they were built. All of them were built before 1980.

    But I see that you refuse to listen. I will stop arguing now.
     
  11. Fresol

    Fresol Angry Halfling in Green

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    If you're talking about something like this you might as well include it in America's historical goals.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_hydroelectric_power_stations
     
  12. killerkebab

    killerkebab Chieftain

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    I especially like the Russian second goal, if a mechanic exists whereby we can 'force' an AI to adopt a communist government.

    I'm not sure if they'll have friendly relations with us once we force them to do this though. Is there a way to give the AI an incentive to join our 'communist bloc'?
     
  13. iOnlySignIn

    iOnlySignIn Prince$s

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    Need I remind you that there are 4 Russian, 1 American, and 2 Chinese dams in the top 12 of that list, and that all the Russian ones where constructed before 1980 while both the Chinese ones are built after 2000?

    If Russia had built its dams after 2000 like China does, you can be sure that at least 10 out of the top 12 on that list will be Russian. It's simple geography. Russia has not one (like China or America), but several of the world's strongest rivers in its realm.
     
  14. Tomorrow's Dawn

    Tomorrow's Dawn Heroes Never Die

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    Well I'm aware of the fact that the USSR undertook many dam building projects.

    However, what I am trying to say is that framed in the state of mind of the competitive aspect between the USSR and America, it is more obvious to compete over the Manhattan Project & the Apollo Program than the [stand-in dam project]. As you can see from my location, I'm quite knowledgable about American dam and water management affairs. Most of them were constructed between the 1920's and the 1960's, in my state, particularly for the express purpose of irrigating+powering the arid Southern California regions and in Nevada. Other dam/water projects all across the nation were either built for similar purposes or for practicality, or (more often than not) political prestige. In fact, dam projects were partially responsible for the success of the Civil Rights Movement; in which Civil Rights leaders promised legislators and lawmakers that they would support their dam projects if they in turn, had their backing in the civil rights struggle. Dams in the context between the USSR and America were not competitive. The space race and the arms race, were.
     
  15. Tomorrow's Dawn

    Tomorrow's Dawn Heroes Never Die

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    Spies. Change Government option.
     
  16. killerkebab

    killerkebab Chieftain

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    In that case, I love it. It's new and different and adds a little bit of flavour - not to mention giving the espionage feature a real use in winning a UHV.
     
  17. Jusos2108

    Jusos2108 Chieftain

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    I pretty much agree with iOnlySignIn's list of the bad ones, but I would like to add the last missing Russian UHV to it. Building 50 ICBMs is tedious, boring and pointless. I would rather have them controlling the USSR's territory or just being the largest nation, or having 20% of land in 1980.

    Also unless the SA is extended to the Caribbean, I see no point for England to control more than one city there. I assume that these cities can also be conquered; otherwise it is a pain.

    Rest of the stuff sounds good though.
     
  18. iOnlySignIn

    iOnlySignIn Prince$s

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    Whether via Espionage or Trade, you can only change other civ's civics to your own.

    Which means that Russia has to adopt State Property itself to win this UHV.

    I oppose that. No civ should be forced to adopt any specific civic.
     
  19. Fresol

    Fresol Angry Halfling in Green

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    Did I say something like including building the Three Gorges Dam into China's historical goal? If you really love to see player as Russia build it you would consider rename it first. Besides, does the year 1980 hold some significance? As you've said before, 1950 AD in game is already too late, none of the listed dams were built before that.
     
  20. srpt

    srpt Deist

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    I don't know how its coded but there's a UHV in RFCA (Tang maybe?) to control a contiguous (ie all connected) empire form Vietnam to Tarim or something like that. I think for Russia's Siberia goal contiguous control to the Pacific would be more fun than a certain number of cities.
     

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