European UHV overhaul

[Fresol]

Whether via Espionage or Trade, you can only change other civ's civics to your own.

Which means that Russia has to adopt State Property itself to win this UHV.

I oppose that. No civ should be forced to adopt any specific civic.

Building SoL requires Republic.

 

[iOnlySignIn]

Did I say something like including building the Three Gorges Dam into China's historical goal? If you really love to see player as Russia build it you would consider rename it first.

I don't give a flying toss about names. That much should be obvious from my username on this forum - it's a string of symbols, nothing more. Leoreth already renamed Broadway into Wembley. I'm a big fan of Broadway musicals and don't know even what Wembley is exactly. You never heard me complain about the name change, no?

Besides, does the year 1980 hold some significance? As you've said before, 1950 AD in game is already too late, none of the listed dams were built before that.

Sorry. I edited my post but you seemed to have missed it. Here:

If Russia had built its dams after 2000 like China does, you can be sure that at least 10 out of the top 12 on that list will be Russian. It's simple geography. Russia has not one (like China or America), but several of the world's strongest rivers in its realm.

 

[iOnlySignIn]

Building SoL requires Republic.

Switching out of it does not give you Post-Communist Crisis.

Switching into it does not eliminate all your Corporations.

Last but not least, the only civ whose UHVs require SoL, America, starts with Republic, rendering your argument pointless. Same with the Greek/Egyptian Wonders goals and Pantheon.

I am perfectly happy to accept the Communist UHV for Russia, IF Russia starts with State Property.

 

[Tomorrow's Dawn]

I do agree that no civilization should be forced to adopt any given civic, especially to win the UHV.

However, my current issue right now is that a Communist civilization is still not an equal mechanically to a Capitalist civilization. Spare me the modern-day comparisons about the failure of communism (and I would arguably say that Scandanavian socialism is the way to go to boot, and examples of failed capitalism), but I think between the eras, at least two different types of civics should remain competitive to one another. As Leoreth himself made clear with the comparison between Dynasticism & City States; they must remain competitive with one another.

How Leoreth's proposal currently stands, Russia is forced to take a mechanically inferior setup.

 

[Fresol]

Switching out of it does not give you Post-Communist Crisis.

Switching into it does not eliminate all your Corporations.

Last but not least, the only civ whose UHVs require SoL, America, starts with Republic, rendering your argument pointless. Same with the Greek/Egyptian Wonders goals and Pantheon.

I am perfectly happy to accept the Communist UHV for Russia, IF Russia starts with State Property.

I can kind of understand what you mean, but you may want to stop saying things in such an absolute tone, especially when what you are saying now contradicts what you said before. (Pardon me for my poor English here.)

And France also needs to build SoL.

And what about Persia's historical goal? It's not so possible to invade Greece and Rome to get a total of 7 wonders.

 

[iOnlySignIn]

I do agree that no civilization should be forced to adopt any given civic, especially to win the UHV.

However, my current issue right now is that a Communist civilization is still not an equal mechanically to a Capitalist civilization. Spare me the modern-day comparisons about the failure of communism (and I would arguably say that Scandanavian socialism is the way to go to boot, and examples of failed capitalism), but I think between the eras, at least two different types of civics should remain competitive to one another. As Leoreth himself made clear with the comparison between Dynasticism & City States; they must remain competitive with one another.

How Leoreth's proposal currently stands, Russia is forced to take a mechanically inferior setup.

Simple solution.

State Property results in -50% Yield and Commerce of Corporations, instead of eliminating Corporations altogether.

And France also needs to build SoL.

Ah, sorry I forgot. France UHVs are so easy that they are no longer in my mind.

I can kind of understand what you mean, but you may want to stop saying things in such an absolute tone, especially when what you are saying now contradicts what you said before. (Pardon me for my poor English here.)

You mean how I said before that I absolutely oppose the Communist UHV, but now said I would accept it if Russia starts with State Property?

Syllogism with impossible premise. I would also accept Russia's Communist UHV if one equals zero. Or when Hell freezes over. That doesn't contradict the fact that I will never accept it.

 

[Leoreth]

Uhm...
With nerfed GAs and a spawn date at 840 AD? I don't think that is remotely possible to achieve...

That's subject to some testing, it's just that the current "most cultured city" goal is usually fulfilled with one or two great artists which isn't very interesting. If necessary, I'll change it to, say, 25000 culture. It's just that "legendary culture" sounds better than some arbitrary number.

I suggest you make that 'almost complete' map of the world, since you need Submarines/Satellites to explore Antartica/North Pole completely, IIRC.

Yes, I planned to exclude the areas that can't be reached.

City-state change you suggested is very original for sure. Will work very well too in high-food Mediterranean, and not that much elsewhere (although China could make use of it too, I guess).

Still, 'exceeding the number of worked tiles?' I suggest you make that exceeding [the number of worked tiles -1/2].

Probably, this would be subject to testing.

At first, I had some concerns about the impossibility of the 2nd Russian goal, then I realized, it extends to vassals too, doesn't it?

To add to the comments before, there are multiple ways to do this:
- get friendly by generosity (certainly possible for backwards civs)
- vassalization (historical for Mongolia or Germany)
- espionage

Yes, this would reduce your civic options somewhat. But if you don't like State Property, there's always Supreme Council, or vice versa.

10 cities in Siberia sucks - 7 cities is OK, I can even find 8 sensible city spots, but 10? No way. Not unless you modify the map to give Siberia the realistic amount of resources (Fur, Oil, Timber). Just compare how few Fur resources there are in Russia with how many there are in Canada - it's absurdly unrealistic.

Right. I just wanted to make it a little more pressing without thinking it through.

Ethiopia sucks. It could have been salvageable with sensible city placements, but not with Zara spamming cities 2 tiles from each other in the middle of Deserts and Swamps away from Coasts and Rivers. What is the point of controlling Ethipia if the first thing I'm going to do after the UHV date is to gift it away to whoever wants it?

You get an UHV goal? What's the point of thousands of culture points, for example? Some UHV are intended to make you pursue things you wouldn't normally.

Having the complete map of the world is even more tedious and pointless than having the largest map of the world. If this is RFC: DoC RAND, it would be very interesting. But it is not. There is no joy exploring a map that I already know inside out. None.

Point. I wanted to get rid of the Australia goal because it's equally uninteresting, especially since you can easily launch from Indonesia now. And I thought the Dutch contribution to mapping out remote areas of the world (Tasman, Bering) warrants representation, but it probably doesn't translate into a good game challenge overall. Any other idea?

I pretty much agree with iOnlySignIn's list of the bad ones, but I would like to add the last missing Russian UHV to it. Building 50 ICBMs is tedious, boring and pointless. I would rather have them controlling the USSR's territory or just being the largest nation, or having 20% of land in 1980.

Point. I wanted to represent Russian rocketry achievements and MAD, but it's really quite boring, especially for the last goal. Would it be too much to ask them to invade the US?

Also unless the SA is extended to the Caribbean, I see no point for England to control more than one city there. I assume that these cities can also be conquered; otherwise it is a pain.

Yeah, I intended SA to include the Caribbean, and conquering is okay of course.

 

[Leoreth]

I don't know how its coded but there's a UHV in RFCA (Tang maybe?) to control a contiguous (ie all connected) empire form Vietnam to Tarim or something like that. I think for Russia's Siberia goal contiguous control to the Pacific would be more fun than a certain number of cities.

Oh, right. Totally forgot that I had the same idea once. Really need to look into RFCA's code.

 

[Tomorrow's Dawn]

Simple solution.

State Property results in -50% Yield and Commerce of Corporations, instead of eliminating Corporations altogether.

^That + default State Property bonuses even out to an equivalent Economy bonus, you would say?

I knew about the Espionage thing, hence why I answered killerkebab with it, but it also stipulates that civs need the Communism tech as well. And my problem with that is that I dislike disseminating tech and helping others get advanced (unless they're not European). I guess it makes sense though, considering the USSR tried to preach Communism like it was Gospel. Also, YES, Leoreth. We should absolutely have an invade USA + invade Russia goal for the both of them respectively. That is infinitely more preferable over 50 ICBMs.

 

[Leoreth]

Instead of -50% yields State Property could also only allow one corporation per city.

 

[iOnlySignIn]

Instead of -50% yields State Property could also only allow one corporation per city.

That's actually more OP than -50% yields, since I can trade away all other Corporate Resources to focus on one (guess which, LOL).

Also, Suggestions:

Russia:
- Control 10 cities in Asia in a certain year (1800?). This allows diverse gameplay. You can settle/invade Siberia/Central Asia/Mongolia/China/Japan/Middle East, all of which are historical.

- (Be the first to) Build the Apollo Program, Manhattan Project, Lubyanka, and Three Gorges Dam (Lengthy TGD argument with Fresol earlier in this thread).

Italy:
- Control directly or through Vassals 80% of the Mediterranean in 1930 AD.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italy's_Mare_Nostrum

Netherlands:
- Have a larger empire than England and Portugal in 1800 AD. Represents Anglo-Dutch and Dutch-Portugese Wars. The primary colonial opponents of the Netherlands need to be defeated.

 

[Leoreth]

Ah, sorry I forgot. France UHVs are so easy that they are no longer in my mind.

I actually never thought about the implication SoL's Republic requirement has for France's UHV, but I must say that I actually quite like how it is.

That's actually more OP than -50% yields, since I can trade away all other Corporate Resources to focus on one (guess which, LOL).

This sounds like quite a centrally planned course of action to me, so I don't see a problem here

- (Be the first to) Build the Apollo Program, Manhattan Project, Lubyanka, and Three Gorges Dam (Lengthy TGD argument with Fresol earlier in this thread).

I have a feeling that these wonder goals get out of hand, though, and would like to limit them to civs where they really synch up well with the overall situation. The similar Khmer goal will go too for the same reason.

Netherlands:
- Have a larger empire than England and Portugal in 1800 AD. Represents Anglo-Dutch and Dutch-Portugese Wars. The primary colonial opponents of the Netherlands need to be defeated.

I kinda like about the Netherlands that you don't have to fight anyone to win their UHV.

 

[iOnlySignIn]

I kinda like about the Netherlands that you don't have to fight anyone to win their UHV.

You don't have to fight England or Portugal to have larger empires than them, either.

In fact, as the Netherlands you can collapse Portugal without ever declaring on them (and vice versa, if you're Portugal).

This sounds like quite a centrally planned course of action to me, so I don't see a problem here

Around 90% of the things I do in Civ are centrally planned.

 

[Mr_Hobo]

Hello everyone,

Would a "Build a railroad from Moscow to the Far East" goal work for Russia? This would give incentive to taking Siberia, as well as the territory in between, while still being very historical.

Thanks,
Mr. Hobo

 

[Cosmos1985]

Welcome to the forum, Mr_Hobo And I think that the railway suggestion is really good, it's original and meaningfull. That or srpt's suggestion about a contigous piece of land, but that may be to easy.

VIKINGS
UP changes: additional gold from pillaging, conquering cities and sinking ships
UHV:

• Control the core of another European civ in 1050 AD
• Found a city in America by 1100 AD
• Accumulate 2000 gold by pillaging, conquering cities and sinking ships
• Have 5000 gold in 1500 AD

I hope you skip the last one - hoarding gold always seems so counterintuitive, and, well, stupid The other three seems excellent I think.

SPAIN

• Be first to found a city in America
• Acquire a total of 10 gold or silver resources by 1650 AD
• Have the largest empire in the world in 1760 AD

The gold and silver-thing makes sense on paper, but the thing is that it would make them settle in South Africa and try to conquer Oslo etc. - don't we want to try to encourage historical behaviour? I'd like better something religious of a kind, conquer x protestant cities and force-convert a protestant civ, or make sure that Catholicism is the largest religion by x date - if that is too easy, then perhaps have it be x% bigger than number two, or something.

NETHERLANDS

• Be first to have complete map of the world
• Settle three great merchants in Amsterdam by 1745 AD
• Acquire 7 spice resources by 1775 AD

Isn't the map thing a bit tedious? About something related to Portugal, I can follow that, but don't understand why it should be related to England - yeah, they were rivals for some time, but they were also in a Personal Union and to the best of my knowledge they didn't really have any greater quarrels with them than say Spain or France. But given that they gained a lot of their colonial empire by snatching Portuguese colonies, perhaps the UHV could be "Conquer 5(/?) European colonies by x"? Cities owned by Euro civs, outside Europa.
Flavour-wise I'd love to see something related to Free Religion and Republic, but really can't come up with anything plausible here

iOnlySignIn, you have a lot of fine points in your posts, and you're for sure a good contributor to the forum, but I really don't understand why you must answer so aggressively when people disagree with you. It doesn't make your points better or more convincing at all. Please keep it a bit more civil, thanks

Oh and Leoreth I didn't get your thoughts about the new function of City states, sorry if it's just me being stupid, but would you be so kind as to explain that again? It sounds quite meaningless as I understand it, how often do you have the option of having more hired specialists than land tiles?

 

[Mr_Hobo]

Thanks! I think the railroad thing could easily go with the contiguous piece of land idea because they're closely related. I agree that Spain should have a religious goal, but I think the Reformation needs to be looked at, because there are very few gameplay incentives for staying Catholic. That said, I'm not on SVN so if this has been changed I wouldn't know about it.

Mr. Hobo

EDIT: Also, the railroad thing would encourage Russia to stay in the Serfdom-esque civic longer, which is also historical.

 

[Leoreth]

Hello everyone,

Would a "Build a railroad from Moscow to the Far East" goal work for Russia? This would give incentive to taking Siberia, as well as the territory in between, while still being very historical.

Thanks,
Mr. Hobo

Welcome to the boards! I had that idea too and think it's a fine one, it's just that this would require a later deadline and Russia's already full of very late goals.

I hope you skip the last one - hoarding gold always seems so counterintuitive, and, well, stupid The other three seems excellent I think.

True, the other gold goal just needs a deadline then, because I really wouldn't like this goal being accomplished with Privateers or even Destroyers.

Speaking of which, I might extend the Viking UP even further to allow them to actively flag their ships (and their Huscarls) as barbarian, like privateers. FFH has this feature so it wouldn't be much trouble. So you can go shiphunting without the AI hiding its fleet and go conquering without having to keep the cities (which would pass under barbarian control then).

The gold and silver-thing makes sense on paper, but the thing is that it would make them settle in South Africa and try to conquer Oslo etc. - don't we want to try to encourage historical behaviour? I'd like better something religious of a kind, conquer x protestant cities and force-convert a protestant civ, or make sure that Catholicism is the largest religion by x date - if that is too easy, then perhaps have it be x% bigger than number two, or something.

I've counted the number of gold resources and 10 is roughly the number you'll get by colonizing the historical parts of the Americas (plus the Philippines). If you want to get cheezy about it you can use Norway or India too, but that comes at the expense of your stability. Plus, the conqueror events (both kinds) give you an easy way to approach the goal in a historical way).

I've thought about a pro-Catholic/anti-Reformation goal, too, but if that can be done I'd rather replace the third goal.

Isn't the map thing a bit tedious? About something related to Portugal, I can follow that, but don't understand why it should be related to England - yeah, they were rivals for some time, but they were also in a Personal Union and to the best of my knowledge they didn't really have any greater quarrels with them than say Spain or France. But given that they gained a lot of their colonial empire by snatching Portuguese colonies, perhaps the UHV could be "Conquer 5(/?) European colonies by x"? Cities owned by Euro civs, outside Europa.
Flavour-wise I'd love to see something related to Free Religion and Republic, but really can't come up with anything plausible here

I like the colony stealing. I know it directly contradicts what I said about military stuff for the Dutch, but still.

iOnlySignIn, you have a lot of fine points in your posts, and you're for sure a good contributor to the forum, but I really don't understand why you must answer so aggressively when people disagree with you. It doesn't make your points better or more convincing at all. Please keep it a bit more civil, thanks

I can sign that.

Oh and Leoreth I didn't get your thoughts about the new function of City states, sorry if it's just me being stupid, but would you be so kind as to explain that again? It sounds quite meaningless as I understand it, how often do you have the option of having more hired specialists than land tiles?

Yeah, that's why someone already mentioned there needs to be a more complicated relation for it to be balanced. Maybe it's easier to say: +1 food per specialist for all cities that work less than X land tiles. If you don't have many specialists, this won't be useful anyway, and small cities that won't work many land tiles by default will not hire specialists anyway (other than the odd free specialist). Civs with closely placed cities with lots of water (Italy, Greece, Maya or even Korea and Japan) could benefit from that a lot, while it's not very interesting for 20-tile-city civs.

 

[Mr_Hobo]

Thank you! I think that the railway goal would have to come in the twentieth century... which is really late. Earlier goals could be some sort of Baltic expansion (it would have to be balanced with Siberian expansion) or an anti-Mongol goal perhaps?

EDIT: Or a "Warm-water ports" goal, which requires coastal cities below a certain longitude.

 

[iOnlySignIn]

iOnlySignIn, you have a lot of fine points in your posts, and you're for sure a good contributor to the forum, but I really don't understand why you must answer so aggressively when people disagree with you. It doesn't make your points better or more convincing at all. Please keep it a bit more civil, thanks

It's just the way I speak on the internet - I've spent too much time arguing with people who are even more aggressive on other forums (where I am renowned for my peacefulness and timidness). I'm still not used to how mellow this forum is - or the dilapidated relic that is this forum's server, for that matter.

Actually I've been actively trying to tone it down here. More than 30% of the time after I make a post on this forum, I would immediately modified it so that certain points are made less aggressively. Seriously, I am trying. But it's hard to change the way I speak.

At the end of the day please rest assured that none of my statements is ever meant to be personal. All of them are about impersonal events and concepts related to this game. I apologize if any of them appears otherwise.

 

[Tomorrow's Dawn]

It's just the way I speak on the internet - I've spent too much time arguing with people who are even more aggressive on other forums

Clearly those people have never heard of ponies.

Anyways, I'd like to weigh in on the France UHV goals.
I am not terribly certain that I want to be culture pumping Paris,
but then again, if I'm going Domination, I'm not going to be building
Paris anyway. I actually have some beef with Prussia, in the fact that you
can't build Berlin on the coast by the river (or can we? Last I checked, it
was Stettin 1W of the river). If we could have the Beijing rule
for Paris + Berlin, I'd be happy.