European Union

[citis]

Why everybody are so keen on making re-spawning civilization to be playable? Greece can respawn between 1800 AD and 2020 AD (Const.py line 499, you can check that yourself) if civilization that control its core is unstable and have Nationalism but not Imperialism civic if I remember correctly.
Not playable because IMO it isn't interesting and/or history-changing enough to be playable.

Oh, and EU is an organisation, not a civilization. Unless this game called Organization IV and the base mod is Rhye's and Fall of Organization, I think it shouldn't be added.... and also you should suggest adding ASEAN, Arab League, and African Union "civilization" as well if you want to add this EU "civilization"

Spoiler :

However, I think the idea of EU as a mechanic is quite interesting; in the model of AP/UN, acts like the regional UN, give effects only to specific region (like EU policy of adopting Universal Suffrage will only affects European civilization) and building it + become leader necessary to win Diplomatic Victory. Example of this could be EU, AU, ASEAN, SCO, NATO, and many more..

I opened this thread to discuss about European Union. We can represent it as follows:
*A civilisation (that will spawn on half of Europe, it would be fun, especially if you want to play a short late domination game )
*A permanent alliance
*An Apostolic Palace/UN mechanic

Maybe the best option is the last one so I'll make the start and propose how I think now it should work:
*The european parliament will be enabled by mass media. It will require also a european civilisation, universal suffrage and being at peace.
*When it is built all european civilisations that aren't in war and run universal suffrage will be questioned to join European union by a YES or NO question. AI's will always join EU except if they run a really strong economy. Members state will lose all their vassals.

Resolutions:
*Presidential elections similar to the UN and apostolic palace.
*There won't be diplomatic victory resolution, because it is a regional organisation.
It can be replaced by a permanent alliance resolution which will be equally difficult to win. If it passes then European Union will become a permanent alliance.
*Accepting member resolution: If there are candidates the president will be forced to choose a candidate for an acceptance resolution. The resolution will ask members if they accept the candidacy. Candidate will be asked if they want to become a member. AI's will accept the candidacy if they are friendly, pleased, or cautious. They will abstain if they are annoyed and refuse only if they are furious. Candidate will just be asked a YES or NO question if they wants to join European Union. AI candidate will accept the candidacy, and there may be a possibility to refuse it if it has a really strong economy. If the candidate becomes member it loses all the vassals.
*Single currency resolution: +1 in all cities, great depression more effective
*Single constitution resolution: all members are forced to switch to republic
*Evironmentalism act: all members are forced to switch to evironmentalism (then the free market civic required will become evironmentalism)
*Euroarmy resolution: equivalent to defensive pact
*Erasmus: +1 by universities
*Space programme resolution: combined Space victory win. The members will be able to construct a different part of the spaceship. The president may ask for a launch resolution and the members will vote. If the EU wins a space race victory and the player is member player wins. If not then...beware the EU!
*Scientific cooperation resolution: combined all technologies held by members revieled to all members
*Eurodiplomacy resolution: European Union will work as one civ in diplomacy. President can handdle other civs diplomacy screens and members will vote for the final decision of every agreement.

In order to become a candidate civ requires:
*Be a european civ.
*Run universal suffrage, free market and secularism.
*Not being at war.

AIs especially the weak will try to become members at top priority.

Other effects:
Effects due to EU being an economy union (single market, freedom of transfering goods, capital, labour and money):
*+1 "traderoute: to all city members
*access to the benefits of all resources (apart from building weapons) (but it can not be traded if not possessed inside the cultural borders)
For example if France has Uranium and you control only Italy you can build a nuclear plant but you can't build nukes, nor trade France's uranium.
*+25% in trade routes from members' cities
*backyard civilisations will be able to investigate techs that are discovered by other members at signifficantly lower cost

Effects due to EU being a political union:
*cannot change required civics
*+1 hapiness to all cities
*+2 stability per member state to all members
*no unhapiness/revolt issues by culture of a member state, no stability issue from culture in member's territory
*+3 friendlier attitute towards the members
*cannot declare war among members

 

[Pavel Chichikov]

i hope this is trolling

 

[NorwegianSalmon]

*A civilisation (that will spawn on half of Europe, it would be fun, especially if you want to play a short late domination game )

No. European Union domination is neither realistic or historical.

*A permanent alliance

No.

*An Apostolic Palace/UN mechanic

Well, maybe.

*Run universal suffrage, free market and secularism.

Requiring securalism is not historical, as both Greece and Denmark have state religions and are EU countries.

 

[Justynian]

It would be too OP and really unfair for the rest of civs, unless similar organisation would be created for every continent. However this would practically change the ~15 civs game into 5 civs game. What would take away all the fun

 

[Sanguivorant]

This is a weird idea.

In my opinion, the European Union in civ is similar to all European nations with republic and universal suffrage having defensive pacts and open borders with each other.

The European Union, for now, is more of an economic trade agreement than a state with actual authority in the affairs of other states, so it definitely cannot be a new civ, though there are some benefits, like free border crossing for any national part of the European Union.

The best way to represent the EU would be to make diplomatic bonuses between all of the civs that are European and run republic and universal suffrage, in the hopes that they may form open borders agreements and defensive pacts with each other.

Other than that, I wouldn't take the EU idea any further.

 

[calad]

Well I didnt read first post but game DoC should present some kind of late game unification. Seeing Babylonia and Inca running around world in future era is absurd.

Basically there should be civ federation/union... which allows you to make national wonder which works like UN only with you and your vassals.

 

[BenZL43]

You should only quote the idea in the spoiler. I don't agree with European Union as a civilization --"

If any, it should be mechanic like AP/UN and all similar regional organization like ASEAN and AU also included so every civilization have Regional Organization, making it a fair mechanism. To make it more interesting, it could be added as pre-requisite to win Diplomacy Victory.

 

[Royal Tenenbaum]

One objective of 1.12 will be AP/UN/Congress remaking. After stability it is events. After both of those it is adding BUG, which is a helpful interface.

 

[BenZL43]

True.

 

[citis]

This is a weird idea.

In my opinion, the European Union in civ is similar to all European nations with republic and universal suffrage having defensive pacts and open borders with each other.

The European Union, for now, is more of an economic trade agreement than a state with actual authority in the affairs of other states, so it definitely cannot be a new civ, though there are some benefits, like free border crossing for any national part of the European Union.

The best way to represent the EU would be to make diplomatic bonuses between all of the civs that are European and run republic and universal suffrage, in the hopes that they may form open borders agreements and defensive pacts with each other.

Other than that, I wouldn't take the EU idea any further.

No its not DPs (there isn't euroarmy yet). EU begun as an economic union, and its states benefited a LOT. It seems OP but in fact it isn't. Italy, Polland, Greece, Portugal and Netherlands don't have enough resources to be modern states and economies. In fact no european state would have a fate if there wasn't in EU. The most important effect of EU is the prevention of wars, and late late game really needs it. We can make it so that member states lose their vassals and colonies. This way we can simulate the decolonisation process.

I really want to see the EU in the game whatever the mechanism is.

 

[mrrandomplayer]

10 years after the single currency resolution is passed, Greece's economy and stability completely collapse, followed by Italy, Spain, and Portugal. Germany has to bail them massive amounts of money to no avail.

 

[Manco Capac]

Interesting. A concept that bears both advantages and disavantages.

 

[Malchar]

Seeing Babylonia and Inca running around world in future era is absurd.

If you want to force historical accuracy then it wouldn't be a game, but it would be an encyclopedia.



I think that this thread does present an important idea though. If the world congress system is ever reworked, you could consider adding regional organizations.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regional_organization

When the game starts out, you typically only have diplomacy with a few civilizations. As the game goes on, you meet more and more civs until you know everyone on the globe. In the modern and future eras, diplomacy can become quite cumbersome because there are so many civs to interact with.

It would be a lot easier for the human player if they could interface with all the civs in a particular region at the same time. For example, the European regional congress could decide which civs that they all want to sign open borders with. This would be particularly convenient for a human player outside of Europe so that you wouldn't have to sign open borders with all of them individually only to find out that Germany won't sign with you which makes the entire thing useless.

This could also be used as a tool to force the AI to behave in more realistic ways. For example, you could make it so that AI's in the same regional congress are much more likely to have open borders and defensive pacts. For example, if Portugal tries to invade China, the other Asian civs will also declare war, rather than having seemingly random defensive pacts such as with Russia or Ethiopia which would be somewhat useless and unrealistic.

Once the world congress starts, you also get regional congresses. Each civ in the region is guaranteed participation for the regional congress, but the regional congress can only affect things in that region, so the European congress can't decide to give Beijing to England. You could have as many or as few regional congresses as you want. It might make sense to just start with a European congress, but you could add more later if it makes sense. You could also have these smaller congresses be based on whether or not the civ is a "third world country" (based on statistical data), or you could have congresses for each religion or only for certain major religions.

The regional congresses could also be used to elect which civs get to participate in the world congress. You could do one or two civs from each smaller congress (depending on how many congresses you have). You can also have special invites for the two or three most powerful civs or whatever other metric you want to use to represent the UN Security Council.

 

[citis]

I'll try to make a less powerfull version. However, since civs lose all their vassals and colonies, it isn't OP, it is balanced but whatever... Changes in bold.

*The european parliament will be enabled by mass media. It will require also a european civilisation, universal suffrage and being at peace.
*When it is built all european civilisations that aren't in war and run universal suffrage will be questioned to join European union by a YES or NO question. AI's will always join EU except if they run a really strong economy.
*Other euros can become members after an appropriate acceptance resolution passes.

In order to become a candidate civ requires:
*Be a european civ.
*Run universal suffrage, free market (evironmentalism if passed), not fanaticism and the other civics that passed.
*Not being at war.

AIs especially the weak will try to become members at top priority.

Becoming a member:
*Members state will lose all their vassals and (extra-european) colonies.
*Immune to stability problems for 10 turns (protecting their loss of colonies and vassals).
*Open borders agreement with all other members

Resolutions:
*Presidential elections similar to the UN and apostolic palace.
*There won't be diplomatic victory resolution, because it is a regional organisation.
It can be replaced by a permanent alliance resolution which will be equally difficult to win. If it passes then European Union will become a permanent alliance.
*Accepting member resolution: If there are candidates the president will be forced to choose a candidate for an acceptance resolution. AI's choice will be random. The resolution will ask members if they accept the candidacy. Candidate will be asked if they want to become a member. AI's will accept the candidacy if they are friendly, pleased, or cautious. They will abstain if they are annoyed and refuse only if they are furious. Candidate will just be asked a YES or NO question if they wants to join European Union. AI candidate will accept the candidacy, and there may be a possibility to refuse it if it has a really strong economy. If a civ refuses to become a member, or fails to become a members won't be asked again until all the others are asked.
*European civic free market: all members adopt free market
*European civi environmentalism: all members adopt environmentalism
*European civic secularism: all members adopt secularism
*European civic republic: all members adopt republic
*European civic egalitarianism: all members adopt egalitarianism (in v1.11 I don't know the civics of SVN)
Note: candidacy require all european civics to already be adopted
*Single currency resolution: +1 in all cities, great depression more effective
*Euroarmy resolution: equivalent to defensive pact
*Scientific cooperation resolution: combined all technologies held by members revieled to all members
*Space programme resolution: combined Space victory win. The members will be able to construct a different part of the spaceship. The president may ask for a launch resolution and the members will vote. If the EU wins a space race victory and the player is member player wins. If not then...beware the EU!

No erasmus (too unimportant), no diplomacy (too complicated) .


Resolutions refering to wars/cities etc. don't exist, because it is completely anti-historical. EU is an economic regional organisation that may become a fedaration of states or a state (permanent alliance). It doesn't change borders, nor declaring wars, it isn't an apostolic palace, nor a UN of Europe.

Other effects:
Effects due to EU being an economy union (single market, freedom of transfering goods, capital, labour and money):
*cannot cancel open boredrs with members No extra "traderoute to all city members.

*access to the benefits of all resources (apart from building weapons) (but it can not be traded if not possessed inside the cultural borders)
For example if France has Uranium and you control only Italy you can build a nuclear plant but you can't build nukes, nor trade France's uranium.
I'll keep that since you lose all your colonies.

Effects due to EU being a political union:
*cannot change passed civics
*no stability bonus, since you control mainly your core there won't be any problem
*no unhapiness/revolt issues by culture of a member state, no stability issue from culture in member's territory
*no sparking borders hit, no religious hit
no +3 friendlier attitute towards the members
*cannot declare war among members

Historicity issues:
*EU was made to maintain peace in Europe and succeded.
*EU is an economical organisation
*EU isn't an alliance
*EU isn't a multi-defencive pact
Think about the last. DPs make the game to cause WWs. EU isn't a defencive pact, so it doesn't contribute to WWs. Take the example of African Union: NATO attacked Libya, a member of AU but no AU member declared war. So AU isn't a defencive pact, it is more an economic union.
*EU balancises the effects of decolonisation

Gameplay effects:
*simulation of no wars in Europe in the late late game.
*limitation of WWs in the late late game, since major powers are in Europe
*decolonisation process in a balanced way
In many games Spain collapses when it loses its colonies. If we want to include a decolonisation process then there should be a EU.
*the game becomes more challenging. If you play a non European civ like Japan or USA you'll have many stronger opponents than before
If you play a European civ like Prussia you'll try to crab as more as possible before the emerge of European Union, or you make block its emerge. If you are too strong then EU members may make an alliance against you in the late late game making it more challenging. (Propably this would be an alliance between Portugal, Spain, Polland if alive, England and Russia if alive, hmmm the english technology combined with Russia's production in Siberia will be a chalenge and more interesting game against the great Prussia)

 

[citis]

If you want to force historical accuracy then it wouldn't be a game, but it would be an encyclopedia.



I think that this thread does present an important idea though. If the world congress system is ever reworked, you could consider adding regional organizations.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regional_organization

When the game starts out, you typically only have diplomacy with a few civilizations. As the game goes on, you meet more and more civs until you know everyone on the globe. In the modern and future eras, diplomacy can become quite cumbersome because there are so many civs to interact with.

It would be a lot easier for the human player if they could interface with all the civs in a particular region at the same time. For example, the European regional congress could decide which civs that they all want to sign open borders with. This would be particularly convenient for a human player outside of Europe so that you wouldn't have to sign open borders with all of them individually only to find out that Germany won't sign with you which makes the entire thing useless.

I would like to see other regional organisations as well. It is fair. I won't analyse it here since it is a EU thread. I propose to include the EU at first, balancise it and then we put others too.

This could also be used as a tool to force the AI to behave in more realistic ways. For example, you could make it so that AI's in the same regional congress are much more likely to have open borders and defensive pacts. For example, if Portugal tries to invade China, the other Asian civs will also declare war, rather than having seemingly random defensive pacts such as with Russia or Ethiopia which would be somewhat useless and unrealistic.

Regional organisations aren't defencive pacts.

Once the world congress starts, you also get regional congresses. Each civ in the region is guaranteed participation for the regional congress, but the regional congress can only affect things in that region, so the European congress can't decide to give Beijing to England. You could have as many or as few regional congresses as you want. It might make sense to just start with a European congress, but you could add more later if it makes sense. You could also have these smaller congresses be based on whether or not the civ is a "third world country" (based on statistical data), or you could have congresses for each religion or only for certain major religions.

Regional organisations are economic organisations. EU never questioned its members about nothern Ireland. Regional organisations don't redistribute cities.

The regional congresses could also be used to elect which civs get to participate in the world congress. You could do one or two civs from each smaller congress (depending on how many congresses you have). You can also have special invites for the two or three most powerful civs or whatever other metric you want to use to represent the UN Security Council.

No. About 198 nations are represented in the UN directly, and all of them have the same right to tell their opinion.

 

[Askiya]

No. About 198 nations are represented in the UN directly, and all of them have the same right to tell their opinion.

Only the 5 conventional great powers (U.S, UK, France, China, and Russia) have permanent seats with veto power. So U.N. representation isn't entirely equal.

In fact, several countries are complaining about the power disparity between the permanent members and non permanent members and have formed a group (Uniting for Consensus) to attempt to reform that. But I digress. I'm sort of on the fence concerning an EU included in DoC, mainly because I'm not sure how it would improve gameplay.

 

[citis]

Only the 5 conventional great powers (U.S, UK, France, China, and Russia) have permanent seats with veto power. So U.N. representation isn't entirely equal.

In fact, several countries are complaining about the power disparity between the permanent members and non permanent members and have formed a group (Uniting for Consensus) to attempt to reform that. But I digress. I'm sort of on the fence concerning an EU included in DoC, mainly because I'm not sure how it would improve gameplay.

The convetional great powers can veto, but they don't represent the world and definetely do not vote in favour of them. (Do you want to add a veto mechanic in UN?)

 

[Sanguivorant]

It seems OP but in fact it isn't. Italy, Polland, Greece, Portugal and Netherlands don't have enough resources to be modern states and economies.

In actuality, few nation states have enough resources to be a modern economy, with the exception of large nations such as the US, or China, which are either large enough to have enough resources, or are a tight federation of nation states anyhow.

The EU was a smart idea to attempt to keep those European nation-states on a competitive edge. I have no idea why there isn't a similar, even tighter union taking place in the Middle East and North Africa, which need more than just an economical union to be stable.

 

[Lone Wolf]

*the game becomes more challenging. If you play a non European civ like Japan or USA you'll have many stronger opponents than before

Losing all their non-European possessions in exchange for some UN-ish resolutions isn't going to make all these opponents stronger. Quite the reverse - it's another instance of "let's turn all civs into a Rome, with all their conquests flipping away from them someday" suggestions which are quite harmful to challenge and gameplay. Not to mention that France, for instance, still has Guyana and a smattering of delightful islands around the world.

The only thing that makes them stronger is your Space Race condition, that, to me, just would feel frustrating and artificial both to win and to lose. Both it and the "lose all colonies" suggestion is a severe and arbitrary interruption of normal Civ gameplay for the sake of simulating something pretty specific.

*simulation of no wars in Europe in the late late game.

I don't see why we should simulate that any more then we should simulate wars or non-wars everywhere else. This forum is flooded with "we need to simulate every historical event" suggestions that, IMO, defeat the "alternate history" point of DoC.

These suggestions, I think, stem from two issues:

1. The mod is already in a very saturated state. Any suggestion of adding something (as opposed to changing smth), as a result, tends to be overly specific, overly arcane, or both. I'm actually surprised that no one proposed simulating the Norman Conquest and the Hundred Years War (Angevin spawn wohoo). Probably it's because the forum lacks Medieval English History fans. People, I think, sometimes misunderstand the point of Conquerors and Trading Companies. They are here to simulate broad and very important flavourful phenomena (Euro colonialism in the Americas and Asia) which the AI is completely incapable of reaching by itself, and which, furthermore, does not perform much violence on the game mechanics. They shouldn't really be used as a precedent for "OMG that particular conquest never happens spawn moar stacks nao".

2. The basic simplistic logic of Civilization isn't that great at simulating REAL HISTORY in general (though the alternative Europa "Glorified Risk" Universalis isn't actually better at it then RFC-DoC). It doesn't do that bad when simulating the international politics of Early Modern/Victorian Era or the Rise of the Roman Empire (of course, even with Stability its internal politics simulation is bad, but meh, Europa Universalis is worse at that stuff). It is inept at simulating the European Middle Ages, but we, like noted, don't have medieval history freaks on these fora, unless you count the occasional Byzantinophile freak (Byzantinophiles...). It is also inept at simulating the post-WWII world, and hence we have suggestions like this thread attempting to deal with it. Unfortunately, these
suggestions are so at odds with the Civ gameplay, they perform quite an unelegant violence upon it.

(In fact, Antiquity, the most unelegant period in RFC-DoC right now, which has the "if u setle thar it will flip lol" phenomena in abundance, combined with spawned stacks all over the small Mediterranean - so high ratio of stack spawn/terrain! - is my least favourite period in RFC, and I rarely feel any historical immersion when I play an ancient civ).

 

[Malchar]

Losing all their non-European possessions in exchange for some UN-ish resolutions isn't going to make all these opponents stronger. Quite the reverse - it's another instance of "let's turn all civs into a Rome, with all their conquests flipping away from them someday" suggestions which are quite harmful to challenge and gameplay. Not to mention that France, for instance, still has Guyana and a smattering of delightful islands around the world.

My ideal vision would simply include the option for European civs to join the union. For example, if Portugal and the Netherlands have already lost many of their overseas colonies, they can join up with Greece, Italy, and whichever other European nations are particularly weak. If Spain is still going strong on its own then it doesn't have to join. No nation should join if it would be a disadvantage.

Alternatively, some nations that are already strong might want to join as a means of getting even further ahead. For example, Germany frequently ends up with few overseas colonies. If a strong Germany joined the union, they could enjoy better trade routes, defensive pacts, and a nice land buffer on every side with essentially no disadvantages.

I don't see why we should simulate that any more then we should simulate wars or non-wars everywhere else. This forum is flooded with "we need to simulate every historical event" suggestions that, IMO, defeat the "alternate history" point of DoC.

I'm against the forced simulation of so many historical events. I love seeing the alternate histories that show up, especially during and after the "World War" era. I'm not even a huge fan of the EU specifically but rather I advocate a generic system of regional congresses to supplement the world congress and UN.

I'd love to see the idea implemented for every region, but I'd settle for starting a single regional congress for testing purposes. The European congress seems like the best place to start.

I also think that for any given congress, if not enough nations want to join, then it should never start up in the first place. I don't like the idea of forcing there to be a European congress if it wouldn't make sense in the context of the particular alternate history of the game. I would imagine that for Europe, you would want to require there to be at least 4 or 5 civs all running universal suffrage and lacking extra-European colonies. After you meet that criteria to found the congress, other Europeans can join once they meet the criteria.