Evaluating my peaceful SV progress

trixcit

Chieftain
Joined
Jul 4, 2014
Messages
14
I'm trying to get a SV at Emperor level, but I'm not sure I'm gonna make it. Here's the current status:

http://imgur.com/KNmNhZS
http://imgur.com/kPVsC6F

How do I evaluate my chances of winning? Good parts is that I got the GL and didn't get into wars yet. Bad parts: only one city with jungle tiles and still no friends with any AI to get research agreements. I'm also not so good in manufacturing goods.

When should I abort peaceful SV and start to get into wars to stop other civs?
 

Uzael36

Prince
Joined
Jan 9, 2012
Messages
551
It appears your cities are awfully small and spread a part from each other. Pyongyang in particular. If you are having issues with lots of jungle tiles, you need to use workers to fix that. It would appear that you need work on your build order as well. 213 bpt is awfully low for turn 191. However, if you are in the lead now, then you certainly can win.
 

trixcit

Chieftain
Joined
Jul 4, 2014
Messages
14
Thanks; Pyongyang I just founded because I wanted to have access to the sea below.

Do you have a rough guideline how big my cities / how much bpt I should have at a certain turn? I think I prioritized religion/culture too much in the beginning iso food.
 

kb27787

Deity
Joined
Aug 16, 2013
Messages
2,102
Your empire is unhappy... that's why stuff is not growing.
You should use cargo ships for food.

And for faith and culture... I presume you don't have grand temple yet; if you picked a non-faith generating pantheon you're going to have to get holy sites from prophets. 13 fpt is not really enough. You srsly need to coup another merc CS. Also I think you don't have circus maximus either.

On emperor you can still win I think. But srsly, raze Pyongyang, or sell it to Napoleon. Who taught you to expand when you don't have happiness to support it? You have a size 9 city at t180+ for crying out loud while your capitol is only 15. Grow what you have, don't make more!

What does your social policy tree look like? Not having monarchy would explain a lot of things...
 

trixcit

Chieftain
Joined
Jul 4, 2014
Messages
14
Thanks! I only just turned unhappy after founding Pyongyang, likely that was a mistake. I did have the cargo ships + caravans (as my 4 cities are at 3 different seas...) for food.

As for faith and culture: I thought I spent too much on that (building religious/cultural buildings iso workers) but now you say it's also too low :).

What's a good guideline of city size?

(I won pretty easily both diplomatic and scientific although it took till turn ~300, but I want to improve)
 

Meridian36

Chieftain
Joined
Jan 4, 2013
Messages
57
Location
Netherlands
culture buildings are crap. with exception of monument, 1gpt is not worth 1cpt. build writers guild, assign specialists and use every writer you get for culture. tourism is worthless when aiming at sv. get gold buildings and ally cultural cs and mercantile ones. make sure to work science slots, plant academies untill pubschools, then save them for 8 turns after you finished all your research labs and bulb all scientists you get. as said, cargo ships for food to capitol first, then for other cities and gold.
Your biggest problem is that your cities are way too small. pyongyang is absolute waste. Settle less cities and grow them really big. That provides way more beakers and gold than youre at right now.
Biggest question is still how many scientists you had.

endgame city sizes: cap over 30, all others over 20.
 

reddishrecue

Deity
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Nov 16, 2009
Messages
5,606
That's good scientific capability, you could concider a science victory. If you take vital technologies that prepare you for a science victory such as education or plastics which have science buildings. Rationalism also has that extra science boost that can help you achieve a science victory faster. Science wonders such as the porcelain tower or the hubble space telescope.
 

RedRover57

Emperor
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Nov 1, 2010
Messages
1,014
Peaceful SV can easily be won with just 3-4 good cities, even on Deity. When settling cities look for growth potential, production potential, adjacent mountain (for observatory), river, lux and strategic resources, coast (for trade routes), strategic placement (e.g., to block off a natural choke point or secure an area). If you have a large amount of very good land then 6-8 cities is still fine under Tradition as long as each one can pull its own weight science-wise. But it's not good to settle more cities just for the sake of having more cities. Quality, not quantity.

Good milestones to hit would be NC before turn 75 (usually 2-3 city NC start), Education before turn 110, all cities running 2 university specialists before turn 150 (pop 12+, higher in capital), public schools around turn 175, research labs around turn 210 (use Oxford to bulb Radio or Plastics). Ideally you want 500+ beakers/turn after public schools and 800+ beakers/turn right after research labs. It's not always possible to hit these milestones (e.g., very aggressive neighbors force you to build a larger army for defense), but you should be able to get close on most all maps.

Plant several GS around your capital for academies then save the rest to start bulbing after all cities have research labs. Sign DoF's and RA's if possible. Go full Tradition, filler policy (or policies) until Renaissance (Patronage or Commerce usually) then full Rationalism plus some ideology policies (usually Freedom or Order but depends on the particular circumstances). After Plastics rush for the Apollo program, Hubble, then other space ship part techs.

In your game you can still easily win as you already have the tech lead. Once you get the strategy down, Deity SV is usually not difficult.
 

reddishrecue

Deity
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Nov 16, 2009
Messages
5,606
That's also correct.. Make sure you have scientist specialists in your science buildings so that you you can make great scientists and then the academies. If you want to bulb technologies then save your great scientists for later because great scientist give you more science when you bulb them later than sooner.
 

fallout3dc

Warlord
Joined
Jun 29, 2014
Messages
289
you don't need to bother with research agreements at all. You are so much better leaving research agreements out of the equation until you get 4 cities founded together (which is one key) with caravans giving food instead of money. You would be so much better off spending money on the library in the last city and then just spending the money on city states and rush buying later science buildings. Research agreements are underwhelming, honestly.

Population is science. Science comes. The trick is to focus on population, have the capital focus of food growth except when it is building the early settlers and NC.

Korea is a really nice civilization for its coastal start bias which means that you get to use cargo ships to send extra food to the capital and satellite cities.

Ideally for a sub-300 science victory (around 1860) you want to get these milestones:
-have 3 cities by turn 60
-Have the National College by turn 90
-have 4th city by turn 100
-Universities up asap with specialists filled (Korea's saving grace)
-1 food cargo for each city by turn 115
You want Tradition filled ideally in the order of Tradition, free monument, landed elite if not building settler yet, monarchy if building setter or settled by now, 15% production reduce, and then the garrison. IDK their names.


Tech path should be:
-writing
-lux techs
-mining (if didn't get it already)
-Philosophy
-civil service
-education (get universities asap with slots filled)
-acoustics if you are going to get a next social policy right after completion of this tech or no mountains next to city, otherwise get astronomy
-sci theory (schools with slot filled in all cities asap)
-use oxford to get radio as the free tech, research industrialization while building it
-chemistry
-fertilizer
-plastics (research labs with slots filled asap)
-satellites
-robotics
-ad. ballistics
-part physics
get hubble with GE, plant GS until research labs. Save the rest for bulbing useful techs.

Get rationalism opener asap (reason of getting acoustics early) followed by specialist, GS generation, university,

Choose order as the ideology when you get to modern era.
choose skyscrapers and GP generation unless if you see something else more important. (remember you are going for a sci vic though. Don't waste them.)
get the factories built in half time for next sp
get 2 more that you would need depending on your situation along with rationalism finisher
get the engineers can build spaceship parts from the third tier

for capital build order i recommend only 1 scout on immortal/deity or 2 on emperor and below

so capital build like this:
-scout
-scout
-shrine (bring warrior back from scouting)
-library (steal worker from city state. make peace the same turn. Do not attack another city state for the rest of the game.)
-settler
-archer
-settler (purchase library)
-worker
-granary
-national college
-settler

satellites should be: (As Maya, skip shrine if other civ)
shrine,
granary,
library (purchase for third for earlier NC)
shouldn't need coliseum but build it if you do
etc.

notice the lack of military? The reason you can get away with it is by not accepting embassies with any civs that are known as aggressive.

Let me know if you have questions about it and I'll try to help.
 

fallout3dc

Warlord
Joined
Jun 29, 2014
Messages
289
have all civs focused on food growth in the citizen management throughout most of the game and 300 sci victory is easy. Honestly, I'd scrap the game you are on now. Generally you don't want cities really anymore than 6 tiles apart unless if their is some huge reason why. Also, don't instantly just thing that settling by mountains are better. I know that is what you did with your 3rd city. You get a 50% increase to science output from observatory, but that in many cases is underwhelming when your population is going to be unhappy or their is very little possibility for massive growth in that same city.
 

fallout3dc

Warlord
Joined
Jun 29, 2014
Messages
289
Also, sorry going off here, but the GL is not only impossible to achieve on immortal/deity but it is also highly overrated. In fact an early library with a quick few cities and NC followed by growth is far more viable for great science. And you noted that you like jungle tiles. I am guessing that this is because of universities 2 science and later the trading posts 1 science, but Jungle is normally not worth settling by and all jungle by a river is worth chopping down for farms with civil service. I guarantee that if you stop looking at science as an indicator in science victories and instead look at the total population from your cities, your science victories will come at least 50 turns earlier.
 

beetle

Deity
GOTM Staff
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Mar 19, 2004
Messages
6,314
Location
Frederick, MD
I am having trouble with my mid game science, so I very much appreciate this thread.

Tech path should be:
-writing
-lux techs

I understand all that you have written except this bit. Why writing before lux techs? So you can be building library in cap asap? Still, before lux? Thanks for explaining.
 

Meridian36

Chieftain
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Jan 4, 2013
Messages
57
Location
Netherlands
i wouldnt go writing asap personally, i usually go pottery lux tech - AH - lux tech - writing. You have to build a lot of stuff before you start on library. Library in a 3-4 pop city isnt worth it, 2 beakers.
 

beetle

Deity
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Location
Frederick, MD
fallout3dc has shrines early in the build queue, so maybe this is just a typo? Or is Pottery a prerequisite for Writing?
 

fallout3dc

Warlord
Joined
Jun 29, 2014
Messages
289
Sorry, my two main civs are Maya and Babylon. Koreas UA gives it basically a free research agreement after library is built. So, it isn't just the early science output but the free tech, which could be whatever you need, which is useful in early game Deity. Emperor you can pretty much do whatever you want with them if you want lux techs first.
 

fallout3dc

Warlord
Joined
Jun 29, 2014
Messages
289
Luxery techs are not useful until you get a worker in your capital, which is why I recommend the Library first. Although, I rarely play on Emperor, unless if it is my first time with a new civ or something, but the city states might not make a worker too fast. On Deity, you can practically attack a city-state, steal the worker, don't make peace, steal second worker in about 7 turns. City states on Deity build workers faster than we do early on.
 

fallout3dc

Warlord
Joined
Jun 29, 2014
Messages
289
Your city size should essentially be about 43 in the capital and about 35 in the other cities. Don't underestimate early pantheons and religions though. Tithe and pagodas followed by swords into plowshares and the 25% reduction to great prophets? PLEASE!! Korea starts on coast so it isn't as important as a civ with a random start, such as the Maya. You are going to eventually want temples, and holy temple (national wonder) built around universities time, and save up a good amount of faith so you can purchase GE and GS in the end. If you aren't going to follow through with faith though, than skip the Rationalism finisher for research agreements.
 

fallout3dc

Warlord
Joined
Jun 29, 2014
Messages
289
Example with the Mayans game I had. I got the win in 302, could have easily been 270 but I wanted to test out the patronage tree fully to see if having all city states as allies could gift GP more than faith...I got one great general. But, you see the distance from the cities, areas I would try and settle, faith accumulation, science per turn, city size etc.

But overall, build whatever you need for your situation. I can't really tell you what that will be 100% of the time, like normally with Babylon Diety I build 2 scouts on continents and if I only see one or two civs on the continent, then I go attack them and take them out asap. If I see 4 annoying civs, then I go peaceful as hell with 100% science focus.

I can't tell you what will be best in absolutely every difficulty. Learn what grows science, have food focus on all cities throughout 95% of the game. Do with what you got.

Just a few more rules of thumb though:
-Don't settle a city that isn't connected to at least 4 tiles of river or the coast adjacent to your other coastal cities. THIS INCLUDES MOUNTAINS.
-Don't have trade routes with other civs or city states. Have every Trade route for food sending food to each other (if capital is receiving food from coastal city, give it a food caravan with another city etc. Grow all of them to great heights.)
-Build roads relatively early. Roads are more important for military defense than many units or walls.
-do not focus on tourism at all, but the culture buildings are not actually bad in the end with nothing else to build as they fill up rationalism faster along with order and possibly dip into patronage.
-Huge one: Don't build any world wonder with the exceptions of Petra (unlikely you'd need it as Korea but on Emperor, you'd want it by turn 105, Immortal you'd want it by turn 90, and not happening on deity. and Hubble.
-try to plant GS on either sheep, cattle, horses, iron, or deer.
-city states are great
-use the garrison feature from tradition. Don't just get it, but actually use it. It saves a lot of maintenance in peaceful games.
-it is a game so have fun. Don't play it like an exam, but if you see something that I put down that doesn't make sense, either try it once or try and improve it. Experiment
-run all specialists with Korea when cities are big enough.
-sometimes in order to get good land, you must be aggressive early if by Germany, Washington, or Mohawks.
-If you are going to be aggressive early and take another civ out, then fully do so if it is just you and them on continents. Don't just take the capital. Raze any city you can that doesn't have any wonders inside. Sell buildings during the raze. Puppet their capital at least until resistance is over and you have the money for courthouses. Or just keep it as a puppet, up to you at that point.
-If a civ spies on you and loses their spy (this will happen a lot), forgive them and allow them to keep spying on you. It is so much easier to leave one spy in your capital than it is to keep paying cs allies an extra 1000 gold every couple of turns because someone staged a coupe.
-Research agreements are weak even with rationalism finisher and PT. So much better things to spend money on.
-upgrade crossbowmen the second you get industrialization. You will keep other civs at bay for another 80 turns with Gatling guns by 1100 AD.
 

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reddishrecue

Deity
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Nov 16, 2009
Messages
5,606
I cant believe you would scrap.. He has a tech lead with Korea and on his way to a science victory.. Good tips.. :goodjob:
 
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