Evaluating my peaceful SV progress

[dragonxxx]

I cant believe you would scrap.. He has a tech lead with Korea and on his way to a science victory.. Good tips..

do you ever get tired of this?

Fallout - thats a nice guide, but what is your reasoning about not getting more than 1 scout on immortal/deity ? And what are u building in your capital after the first scout, while researching pottery I wonder.

 

[fallout3dc]

I forgot it was Korea. Normally I'd build a Mayan archer after first scout so I can build those buildings in rapid succession reliably regardless of my neighbors. I'd then send the archer to steal CS worker and then escort him back. Then head back out and get another one and then initiate peace.
Not saying it is necessarily a better strat but I play on continents so 1 scout is normally enough on those higher levels because I'm not going to be getting many ruins anyway. This was the same reason that I put shrines as the first build order in the new city. Mayas pyramid is arguably the best UB in the game so building it asap secures both solid science and religion.

For Korea and any other civ though, it would be 2 scouts regardless of difficulty. (cept maybe aztecs and incans)

 

[RedRover57]

@fallout3dc

I agree that early RA's are generally not worth it; however, it can be very helpful to have a couple set up to finish right after you have PT built to help push toward Plastics. In addition, a few rounds set up later (after you have the Rationalism policy as well) can help to speed you through the end game and shave off quite a few turns. Late RA's will give you a full tech if you have PT and the Rationalism policy so they are far from worthless. Can you still win without them? Yes, but not as quickly.

 

[fallout3dc]

My experience is that they are but the cities need to be developed quite a bit before it happens but building a wonder for an extra RA bonus and GS? No thanks. Unless if I have the Great Engineer to burn with the Mayans, otherwise 50% more is really lacking. RA are useful though when you are getting to the point where you are saving your GS for bulbing (around plastics) Building a wonder in attempts to save a few turns in the end game never feels right for me though. Especially when I can purchase 4 GS with the faith and 1 GE for hubble in the end.

I'd just so much rather keep city states as allies and receive all of the bonuses from them over a quick tech boost. I don't know the numbers, but I do know that city states are so valuable for absolutely everything especially early happiness and renaissance culture.

Also, if you want to save some turns, get city states as allies so you can make a world congress proposal and request world fair during Renaissance. Build the writers guild and work both slots about 10 turns before your request. There you finished about all of the rationalism tree in about 30 turns. World Fair and Space Station WC wonders should be the main focus in my opinion if you are lacking something to build. And having those city states as allies ensure you get it when you're ready. This is how people get sub 220 science victories, granted they are on Diety so early science victories are actually easier than on Emperor.

 

[Forkandles]

I'm going to buck the trend and say that i love Research Agreements. I've only ever finished before turn 250 when I have a had a few of those and the PT built.

I dont go for all internal food trade routes mind. My city sizes, at the end, are generally 26-30 in the capital and 20-24 elsewhere. I even shut down growth around turn 200-210 and just work all the specialists and hammer tiles. Taking 20 turns to grow from size 22-23 (for example) at that point is pointless for a SV. The food yield is essentially contributing nothing towards to a fast victory at that point, wheres you could work more specialist slots (= extra science with secularism) or generate a few more hammers for building research.

I usually win a SV between turn 240 and 260.

 

[beetle]

I am much too slow with my SV, trying to get faster wins at Immortal so I can move up to Deity, but I don’t understand what could be better at converting gold to science than RAs.

 

[dragonxxx]

I am much too slow with my SV, trying to get faster wins at Immortal so I can move up to Deity, but I don’t understand what could be better at converting gold to science than RAs.

the patronage tenet that gives you science from allied CS.

 

[Forkandles]

the patronage tenet that gives you science from allied CS.

I cant believe that gives a better beakers to gold ratio! You also have to 'waste' three social policies to get there.

 

[Browd]

First, gold is not the only way to win CS allies -- in fact it is often the least effective, as compared to satisfying quests.

Second, the first two policies in Patronage on the road to Scholasticism are far from wasted -- -25% influence decay rate and +25% influence from CS gifts make CS alliances and friendships easier to obtain and maintain. Plus, you get to build Forbidden Palace for extra happiness and 2 extra WC delegates. And I've had Scholasticism provide as much as 20% of my beakers (particularly valuable in a Domination game, where I may not be teching as quickly to Plastics, Satellites, etc.).

I take Patronage in perhaps 25-33% of my games, but when I do I almost always take 3 policies (through Scholasticism).

 

[dragonxxx]

before you enter Ren, you have to pick 1-2 policies anyway, and you also receive other stuff from the CS so it's definitely more worth it than doing RAs under the new rules ... and like browd said - gold is not the only way to ally CS ....

 

[fallout3dc]

Without city-states you are producing less food, less Faith per turn, less culture per turn, less happiness, less defenses etc. City states allow massive early growth. From my experience, you don't really need to get Colosseums and circus maximus, or circuses, or social policies for happiness. Do you realize how difficult it would be to keep growing to large heights and accumulating all areas while keeping happiness up without city states. City states in my experience are the absolute best thing to spend money on regardless of difficulty. Again, research agreements are nice, but how many times are you able to get a DOF with at least 4 people that are playing it peaceful and friendly without having to build up on a military. PT is not a needed wonder. If you really want a PT then build it, but you'd be better off focusing in other areas. WF will allow you to finish that entire Rationalism tree by coming in first with hammers which amounts to around the amount of hammers required for PT, maybe 100 more, but you can burn off writers and manage to get 3 or 4 social policies in 20 turns... I don't understand why this wouldn't be the focus.

 

[beetle]

the patronage tenet that gives you science from allied CS.

That is sweet, but takes a while to unlock. Once available, is 500 gold better value there than say 350 for an RA? Can you (or someone else) provide some of the rough numbers?

 

[Uzael36]

That is sweet, but takes a while to unlock. Once available, is 500 gold better value there than say 350 for an RA? Can you (or someone else) provide some of the rough numbers?

Are you assuming the only way you gain CS allies is through buying them? I've had several games, more recent games, where I've hardly spent a dime the entire game on CS's and had 8+ allied. Not to mention, you are likely going to want allied CS's for other things regardless.

In an attempt to improve my game play, I've focused heavily on doing CS quests, and have found you don't have to spend gold for allies, and that leaves you lots of gold for other things, such as buying all your universities, schools, labs with gold to spare that can be spent on RA's.

 

[dragonxxx]

That is sweet, but takes a while to unlock. Once available, is 500 gold better value there than say 350 for an RA? Can you (or someone else) provide some of the rough numbers?

there was a thread about science from scolasticism a while ago. I could not believe how good this policy actually is, until I first tried it too.

I don't think you can measure it with plain gold per beaker, as you also get culture, soldiers,happiness,resources for your money too. And on top of that the stuff is sometimes free with the quests ...

 

[beetle]

Are you assuming the only way you gain CS allies is through buying them?

Not at all. I am just looking for a convenient way to assess the relative gold cost of beakers. The majority opinion seems to be that gold spent on RAs would better used to rush build science building. That doesn’t seem correct to me.

 

[Uzael36]

Not at all. I am just looking for a convenient way to assess the relative gold cost of beakers. The majority opinion seems to be that gold spent on RAs would better used to rush build science building. That doesn’t seem correct to me.

I'd guess, and I'm not the best player here, is that your gold is well spent on rushing science buildings, but the left over gold probably is well worth spending on RA's. I still need to test this. I keep learning new things by testing out theories and my play is improving as a result.

 

[trixcit]

satellites should be:
shrine,
granary,
library (purchase for third for earlier NC)
shouldn't need coliseum but build it if you do
etc.

Thanks, great advice. Mainly the 'focus on food' mindset is good to have and I now understand why it's important.

I'm now having more difficulty with this growth + happiness; it's in the early game so I don't have the gpt to buy city states. I almost need every happiness building I can get (like colosseum).

-do not focus on tourism at all, but the culture buildings are not actually bad in the end with nothing else to build as they fill up rationalism faster along with order and possibly dip into patronage.

I think I always needs the culture to offset public opinion later on, as it's a main cause of unhappiness later..

 

[dragonxxx]

problem with ra's is that you get beakers based on the lower bpt, and the ai rarely can match your bpt ... so at the end you wait 30 turns to get something like 2 turns worth of science. See spending that 1000 gold for fast observatory will provide way more than what you will get from 3Ra ...

 

[trixcit]

Ideally for a sub-300 science victory (around 1860) you want to get these milestones:
-have 3 cities by turn 60
-Have the National College by turn 90
-have 4th city by turn 100
-Universities up asap with specialists filled (Korea's saving grace)
-1 food cargo for each city by turn 115

Thanks, I'll try to see how I'm doing next game wrt to this schedule.

-Huge one: Don't build any world wonder with the exceptions of Petra (unlikely you'd need it as Korea but on Emperor, you'd want it by turn 105, Immortal you'd want it by turn 90, and lol at Diety. and Hubble.

I didn't get this one, at least I want the NC, right? I also typically build eg oxford.

 

[trixcit]

problem with ra's is that you get beakers based on the lower bpt, and the ai rarely can match your bpt ...

Is this true? I just thought you get an individual bonus (http://civilization.wikia.com/wiki/Research_agreement_(Civ5))