Discussion in 'Civ3 - Hall of Fame Discussion' started by Everkane, Feb 26, 2013.
Topic for my general HoF attempts. I'm gonna keep the older posts just for study purposes.
1. Which tribe do HoF players most often use for diplo/space games up to about DemiGod (except for tiny and sometimes small maps)? Why would they use them? How can you set up a game so they work out as most easiest to use?
That's not necessarily all that big of a deal. The next thing, in my opinion, comes as more important.
2. Load up *any* (well I guess I haven't checked them all) of the top 3 spots for a science/diplo game at 4000 BC. Hit F10, and view the space race. What do you see? And then instead of getting Monotheism/Steam Power/Ecology as needed, you get what instead? (I can explain this if needed).
Keeping 2. in mind, though not in the same way, can really serve you well for any HoF game. For example, I've never had any dates with Isabella (well there was that one time...), but I've had plenty with Theodora.
If you want to put more time in, and don't mind experiencing failure at the start,
3. Run MapFinder for good starts.
4. Don't play out a map until you have a map with a good start where you get an SGL on the first tech.
That said, what I've suggested by 2., I think, the biggest thing you've "missed".
I've seen Russians (and I don't understand why, the only reason is triple-slingshot but seriously I don't see how this can happen that often) and Sumerians (that makes sense, agri/sci with a good timing GA), although I'm not sure I'm right about mine GA timing and this is what I went for. Sumerians. I once did a pretty good Diplo job with the Greeks but the slow beggining is something I like to avoid.
About the setup, I play:
.Pangea 60% water
.wet/warm/5 billion years
.7 opponents (but now I got it, they are not the right ones).
.Sedentary barbarians (chance of free techs for me or anyone else, they will give it for me sooner or later anyway, but I'm not sure about this one).
.AI on Least agression (not sure about this one also).
I do it because I feel more confortable meeting them all very soon and still have more place to expand without war, but I'm not sure it's the best map setup for Diplo HoF. Is it? What should I change, if there is any?
That's interesting and I've already thought about that, definetely it would give me some extra techs at the start of the ages but should it be enough? I mean, if 3 of them get 3 techs and I got the other one sliding F1 I'd gain a few turns but it wouldn't be enough for 700 AD or something. But you could tell me more about that "getting a second tier tech as free tech", because I understand how it happens but the AI never give me the chance to buy the tech for some older age tech + gold, which gives me no choice but getting my own 1st tier free tech them trading for theirs. Still, I would get all of 1st tier techs with this kind of opponents, but like I said if you could give me some tip to get the free tech of the AI without getting mine it would give me the chance of getting a 2nd tier free tech, finally.
I don't run MapFinder because it's very very slow (really!), I do it manually. The spot I always get is: nearby River, lots of shield grasslands, a forest and a cow. Sometimes there are two cows instead and even a luxury bonus. If it's not coastal, better for me (I don't exactly like coastal capitals since it's harder to ring it up around).
About the SGL at the first tech research, should I just quit if I don't get one? That sounds a really extreme job since they are not exactly easy to get. Besides, in this game I used as example I got one to rush the exactly wonder I needed and the two more for ToE and UN. I guess in this particular game SGLs were not the problem. But I was confused about this "getting a SGL in the first tech", is there some kind of tip to do this or is it pure luck like I always thought?
And yes, I think the major mistake you mentioned was 2. (besides, like I've said, I'd need some tips about the 2nd tier free tech).
Still, it can't be my only mistake, you see? And anything about "you should have expanded more", "build more settlers and workers", "go to war more often" or anything about this would not be for some use because everything envolves science research and like I said I had 4~5-turns research the whole game. Of course if there is a way to have exactly 4-turns research and nothing more, well that would be interesting.
This is it for now, thanks a lot for giving me some tips, I'm waiting for more, I'm pretty sure you Spoonwood and others tough HoF players will give me real good ones.
On low difficulties (up to Monarch), the Russian Expansionist trait is great. Because with the scouts you can pop all techs of the ancient era without researching. And furthermore you try to get a very early settler from a hut.
Just two things you have to be careful with:
1. You need to get an SGL with the first tech. Usually Ceremonial Burial.
2. You want to selfresearch Philosophy for the Republic slingshot.
There is a reason why Russia has most of the fastest finishes in these disciplines.
Concerning choice of enemy tribes:
Well having enough Scientistific tribes in te game, can save you in quite a lot of ways:
Per age you can gain 1 or 2 more free techs depending on how your luck goes, which would come down to 20 turns saved in not researching things yourself (remmeber you missed 7 turns alone in the modern age)
They are faster in setting up Libs and Unis so they should be better in researching things themselves, which might net you an additional tech per age which you wont have to do yourself for another potential 12 turns.
And remember the difference between 700 AD and 1000 AD is just 30 turns.
How to get a second level tech
1. Its nice to keep rep and/or Lit as a monopoly in the AA, as this increases your trade potential.
2. Get your last age tech in the interturn (I think you know that already).
3. Switch to the big picture
4. Switch to F1 and set science and Lux to 0%
5. Go to F4 and gift all Opponents into the next age.
6. you now have Republic + lots of gpt to gift for the MA techs, which should be enough to get them all.
7. trade the techs you gained back to the AIs to get your gpt spent back
8. Reset the sliders on F1 as necessary.
Early SGL (@ Calis)
I assume the early SGL is meant for the pyramids? While this is nice I wouldn't understand why its a killer feature, one more AA tech per hut should have at least a similar effect on finising date.
Also wouldnt CB pop in a hut before you are ever able to finish research? Or can you get a SGL for popped techs?
Republic Slingshot (@Calis)
I assume from your comments, that you do not research CoL yourself but trade it from the AI for Philo. On Monrach what do you do in all this turns before the AI comes up with CoL? Normally I would beat them to Philo by 10 turns on this difficulty level.
Yeah, sure I slingshot Republic with Philosophy, my tech research is always Alphabet (if needed), Writting, CoL, Philo and Republic as free tech.
I don't get it why to research CB first if I go for Writ/CoL/Philo I have 3 chances of SGL since the AI underestimate them. In the worst case scenario I will be able to get every tech AI has researched only with those I have.
And why SGL in the first tech is so important? It can really spoil a good spot if someone give me some real good reason for this.
Yes, I just finished a 5 hours game only for test purposes with 7 sci opponents civs.
Changing to MA I could use Republic and Literature to get Feudalism from Persia, but I screwed up pressing some button (maybe leaving the tech tree page, I'm not sure) then I got Monotheism even without talking to all civs. I'm pretty sure I'd be able to get a 2nd tier tech at MA or maybe Engineering in the worst case scenario. But it happens.
In between MA to IA I did everything right but the AI just didn't sold me Nationalism for anything. I got Medicine and Steam Power as free techs but Nationalism just didn't happen. That's ok since I didn't really need it.
But... but... in the IA to Modern Age I was able to finally get a 2nd tier as free tech. Persians got Fission, Germans got Computers, Byzants got Ecology, Russians got Rocketry, I got them all and had Miniaturization as free tech. Very very cool, I know for most of you guys it's usual but it was the first time I could do it.
if I had played for good with the whole intention to HoF and didn't screw up in the AA to MA I'm pretty sure I could make it before 1000 AD.
My empire was ridiculous and I didn't even railroad'd every tile. But it was a good test and I finished 1120 AD, which is good enough for #6.
Next month I'm gonna play for good and probably make it before 1000 AD. Who knows, right?
Oh yeah, just for info purposes, the game I just did is:
.Pangea - 60% Water
.Wet - Warm - 5 Billion
.AI in Least Agression
Ah, of course any other tip will be very very appreciated. I'm always trying to learn something new.
I know what you mean. I only did it once so far in a sgotm where my turn came up at the critical junction and was more than happy when I managed to get through the whole process without messing up.
As far as Nationalism is concerned, this does sound reasonable. Nationalism is way overvalued by the AI, so it might be hard to get from them. Especially since you would not have any optional techs from the previous age for sale in a typical scientific game.
Your settings look good. You can't pop a tech from a hut while researching it. You generally will pop a cheaper tech before a more expensive tech. On the lowest levels this means that players will sometimes deliberately choose to research cheaper techs like Mysticism instead of more useful techs like Writing. You can change the settings of MapFinder so that it runs faster on many machines.
The early Pyramids via an SGL helps your cities to grow faster which increases production and commerce faster, and gives your tourist commerce earlier. This gives you settlers, workers, libraries, and universities earlier. I agree that restarting for an SGL isn't necessarily the most fun way to play. On the lowest levels (Chieftain-Regent... I don't know about this on Emperor) with a large enough map size you can usually reliably pop Code of Laws from a hut while researching Philosophy.
Not getting Nationalism is not a problem. In fact, if game mechanics work as they should, you do NOT want to trade for it until you have your free tech. Assuming that each tech available as equally probable to appear as your free tech, you actually have a greater probability of 2/5 of getting a useful, required tech (Electricity or Industrialization) if you have Steam Power and Medicine, but NOT Nationalism. If you have Nationalism you have a probability of 2/6 of getting either Electricity or Industrialization.
Indeed, Pyramids is pretty much hardcore but I don't know if I would that far to quit if I don't get a SGL in the first tech. Actually, I wouldn't, since a SGL in the AA almost always happens with writ/col/philo and otherwise I would not even have Masonry for Pyramids anyway. But I'm gonna think more about what you said.
I'm not quite sure if I understand what you said, but if I did, you are saying that getting Medicine and Steam Power from AI before getting my free tech I could get Ind/Eletricity as the free one? Because I'm pretty sure I can only get a 2nd tier free tech if all of the 1st tier are taken and since in this case Nationalism wasn't it would be the only choice.
I liked the idea of going to Philosophy without taking CoL and search for it in huts (since at Emperor the AI takes forever to CoL it wouldn't be an option buying it from they), it would save lots of early turns, but it's very risky since the odds of getting CoL on huts without an expansion civ (or even with an exp one) are not that great and I don't like to quit since it takes ages to find some real good spot to start.
What do you people think about GA at the same turn of turning into Republic (or Monarchy if that would be the case)? Too early?
You can get any tech which is available for you to research as a free tech. So if you trade the AI for Mono you should still have a one in three chance of getting Theology, even when you don't own feudalism and engineering.
As for the GA, it sounds to early for me. What do you do with all the extra shields if you don't even have literature.
I think the best time would be to use it to build unis in the early MA
In my opinion, ideally you want to have your GA as soon as you become a Republic (as long as the AI won't capture your cities).
Thanks, I always thought the only way to get a 2nd tier tech is having every 1st tier ones then get the free tech.
I always trigger it as soon as I become a Republic. I don't exactly care about the shields for libraries since I will research Literature very soon (next thing after Republic slingshot) and still put the libraries under GA period just after the temples (and the shields are very usefull in this case).
To build units for war only happens when three+ cities already have library/temple/barracks, they become war factories for expansion. For AA I believe the only units needed are a few defensive ones in the border cities just in case of a very early attack.
Thanks for posting, like I said, I learn something every day here.
Oh, I almost forgot, I'm sorry for a few english mistakes, I live in New York for about 5 years but I'm brazilian so english is not my native language. Just to point it out!
Some comments I would like to make
Firstly, don't wait for an SGL, why, because you need to learn and if you keeping waiting for one, you won't play best when you get one, they are not a magic wand. In fact you can beat 1000AD without one.
Secondly when playing the Russian, the early free settler is as important as an SGL, you can even pop a city after a settler if lucky. (dont forget to build scouts and you can't pop settler if you have one or building one)
Thirdly thing I do is reserch one tech, possibly the wheel, shut off research till writing is popped, then set research on philosophy, making sure you don't complete research until COL is popped.
I am not sure how well this stuff works on emporor though.
One of Lighohouse plus COlossus (in a coastal city) and Mausoleum (usueful in your capital), should give you an early middle ages GA, which seems best time to me.
This is where I dont understand the advantage of an GA so early. At this point your main ressource is still food, be it in the settler factory orin the necessity of new towns to grow in size. But food is not increased by a GA. Of course Commerce is increased by a factor of 1.5 to 2 and that should sped up your research by 2 turns per tech. but From my experience this problem is worth in the early MA, where it is harder to hit 4-turn research from the get go.
And of course you can put Shields into something else but Libs and Markets, but that when you cant use these things, why do so? The temples ou build only drain money from your economy after completed.
That shouldnt mean, that you are wrong, and Spooonwood is backing you and he is a much better player than I am. Its just that I dont get where the actual advantage an GA so early lies.
Maybe I should try this one too, I am getting broed of 20K wins without a single SGL anyway.
I personally often have my GA around the end of the MA, or beginning of the IA in SS or Diplo games. Also brought a lot of success.
In the IA the cities are already good enough to make research at 4~5 turns, in this case the GA will be usefull only for shields but the point of diplo game is research so I can't see why that could be useful.
I'm thinking about changing the GA time for the beginning of MA when libraries and temples are already built. It may improve the research in this critical moment of the game and if everything went right in the between-ages the Education is very near, so the universities can be build in the GA. It sounds nice.
Everybody has different preferences regarding the GA. My results show you that mine is at least not wrong
You build temples??? There are three victory conditions in which I build temples. These are 20K, 100K, and maybe Domination to close culture gaps. Other than that, never ever.
I do since I don't want to quit everytime I find out there is no luxury resources nearby. If I find two of them I might agree temples are useless.
I also don't build temples in lower level space/diplo games. The early GA can also get your settlers and workers out faster, but oftentimes I simply don't see how I can reasonably do so immediately once I've gotten to Republic. Playing as Russia I'll trigger it with the Colossus and the MoM and that usually means the middle ages. Honestly, in all of my science/diplo games I think I've either triggered my GA in the middle ages or later. That said, I would trigger it earlier if I thought I wouldn't lose any cities in a war, but generally I don't think I have a good position to do that, so it happens later.
I still find myself trying the best way of making a real good Diplo victory. I just finished a 7 hours game, nothing really special, just learning something now and then.
This time I finally rushed Pyramids (like Spoonwood said) and triggered GA in the middle of MA.
Two things really destroyed my game in this last one.
1. My in-between turns free tech of MA was Chivalry and the one of the IA was Nationalism. I've lost about 12 turns because of this.
2. The image speaks for itself. No SGL for rushing the UN in 890 AD. More 12 turns lost because of this.
I mean... OK I didn't do a great job since I'm yet trying the best way to do it, but honestly I don't think 890 AD would be very bad in this situation (losing turns with lousy free techs and having a GA time I'm not used to).
With 2 good free techs and the SGL to rush UN I could make it in about 750 AD, if the math is correct (24 wasted turns).
I was already expecting the worst so I prebuilt it, but there was nothing to do to make it less than 12 turns.
Final date: 1010 AD.
Yeah, it must be some kind of cosmic joke, but I try to make it under 1000 AD and get exactly 1010 AD. Terrific .
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