[R&F] Everything that is wrong about the AI obsession with capturing CS in two images

[Eliminator_Sr]

I think the simple solution is attacking a CS is an automatic DOW on their suzerain, but I agree with some others about flavor and agendas being off here. All the AI's currently just seem to operate the same way when it comes to CS which is to absorb them. It doesn't make for very fun game play and it gets tiresome after seeing it happen over and over again. I don't think many people would be in favor of a system where the AI is handicapped and the human player has free reign to take them out - just a more nuanced system where some AI civs like the Mongols aggressively go after them and others like Georgia try to protect them. Currently no AI civ actively tries to protect city states from what I have seen.

 

[Trav'ling Canuck]

I don't think many people would be in favor of a system where the AI is handicapped and the human player has free reign to take them out

Agreed. Whatever mechanism is implemented to improve City State survival, it should impact human players at least as much as the AI.

Civ 5 didn't have this problem. There's no reason for Civ 6 to. I'm okay that the developers tried a different approach with Civ 6, but it's not working. Throw in the towel and revert to the Civ 5 system.

 

[leandrombraz]

There are no personalities in this game. In civ 5 certain leaders had a high flavor for atacking city states while others have a low value. For example atilla would atack them a lot while siam would protect them..

In civ 6 there are no flavors and thats the issue thats why you have so much wierd AI behavior that goes against their agenda.

Even though there's no personalities like in Civ V, there's some level of custom behavior linked to agendas. A clear example is Chandragupta, he always target a neighbor for war regardless of relationship. If you're his neighbor and he is friendly but won't accept friendship, prepare for war, he is coming for you. Other leaders also seem to have unique behaviors linked to their agenda but it's not as clear nor make as much impact as Chandragupta. My hope is that it's possible for Firaxis to add more unique behaviors to each leader, not only for CS interaction but more things that make them feel more true to their agenda. An overhaul of the agenda system as deep as the religions overhaul patch would be appreciated.

I agree that there needs to be some sort of diplomatic protection you can offer city-states. "Suzerainty" is currently a meaningless term and it's absurd that you have to wait for a CS you have invested in to fall before you can intervene.

I also agree that AI leaders who have a stated agenda to protect city-states should be absolutely opposed to conquering them.

But the way a lot of people are talking, it seems that some people would like city-states to be an almost untouchable diplomatic entity, and any conqueror an immediately tarnished war criminal. This is absurd. Taking city-states is an important and useful tactic available to the player, and therefore needs to be available to the AI too. Hard-wiring every computer opponent to be opposed to CS conquest is just hamstringing the AI.

On the one hand you see common criticism that the AI doesn't play the game very well, and then you see people also criticising the AI for being "too willing" to take CS, something that human players do all the time. If the city-state is in your immediate starting vicinity, it makes sense to conquer it. If the city-state has constructed a district you like, it makes sense to conquer it. If the city-state has a suzerain bonus that is no use to you, and potentially a boon to the AI, it makes sense to conquer it. Part of the role of city-states, whether you like it or not, is to provide players (human or AI) an opportunity for conquest with a smaller logistical and diplomatic cost. It's part of the game, and stacking ever more bonuses on city-states to make them unconquerable isn't going to improve anything.

CSs should be conquered by the AI for sure. I don't like to conquer CS but I like to liberate them, it's a nice way to create conflict, mostly with emergency. Fighting for Toronto against Scythia while I was conquering the Netherlands was a real challenge, double horses + Defender of the Faith is no joke. The problem isn't that CSs are conquered but that it's way too excessive right now. My game have 20 CSs, there's 8 alive counting the ones I liberated and that are now being reconquered. That's too much, too fast (most fall in early game) and it brakes the envoys system..

• Reintroduce unit gifting. The suzerain may gift a city state units by moving a unit into the city states territory and gifting it. (I guess some cap is needed like a CS can only have a total of X units and / or you can only gift 1 unit per turn.)

From all the suggestions, this is the one I want the most. I'll never forget a game in Civ V where I was going for a Diplomatic victory, I was isolated on the map and too far of my CSs, then several Civs declared war on me. I kept my CSs alive through unit gifting, while I marched to their rescue and waited for the vote. It was a fun game.

 

[leandrombraz]

Plot Twist: Persia can actually keep Brussels through a combination of happiness, religion, low influence from Khmer and no influence at all from my city due to cultural alliance.

 

[Archon_Wing]

* Give them walls to start with.
* Allow the Suzerain to spend gold on upgrading their units and defenses.
* Conquering more than 1 CS results in permanent war with ALL CSs
* If half or more of the CS's are gone, conquering any more also results in permanent war with CS's

 

[Mr. Shadows]

At a minimum the leaders should be true to their agendas. It makes sense for Alexander to take the CS it shouldn't happen when it's contraindicated by the Civs personality.

 

[MisterBoomBoom]

Have two mechanics. One being a Suzerain and another being a protectorate.

 

[Cedbird77]

I just liberated Brussels, which was captured in that first genocide of CSs that happen in early game. John Curtin, true to his agenda, told me that "We share a common interest in protecting those who cannot protect himself". Next turn:
View attachment 496476
A leader acting against his own agenda right after he congratulated me for liberating a city, conquering another CS that I liberated earlier from Tomyris (may her soul rest in peace). I can't do anything because there's no option to act when an Ally do that against one of your Suzerain, not that it would matter, he is conquering a city that he can't possibly keep because of loyalty. Everything is wrong in that action.


Anyway, Brussels is free from Jayavarman's grasp, Toronto will conquer its own freedom, I'm liberating Granada and what is this nonsense?

View attachment 496477

That's right, the AI obsession attacks again. My recently liberated suzerain is being attacked by my recently renewed ally and there's nothing I can do about it. He also can't possibly hope to keep the city because of loyalty but this time it will go back to Jayavarman, so all my effort was for nothing.


This game need desperately:

- Huge reduction on the AI willingness to attack CS. Increasing their defense didn't do the trick and imo it's the wrong approach. The AI need to value keeping CSs alive.

- A leader agenda/personality should define how willing he is to attack a CS. John Curtin shouldn't be so trigger happy against CSs.

- We need a mechanic that allow us to do something to protect our suzerain from Allies. Either that our suzerain CSs should be part of the alliance. Allies can't declare war on it and maybe get a minor bonus for each CS we got to make it valuable.

- AI need to stop attacking cities that they barely have influence over.

While I agree I disagree. I agree that CS need better defense buffs wary on or the AI needs to be coded to attack CS less. Especially Ghandi and Curtis etc. Point taking...

But this is real life. The strong take over the weak.

Issues with allies and Diplomacy. Things get sticky and unfair in life. We have to make tough choices.

But I do think that there should be a way to protect your Suzerain status with Allies if they invade your CS

 

[Mojo85]

I don't get how the CS start with Ancient walls mod isn't more popular, it basically solves the immediate problem right away (while the programming side can be looked at etc). I've been using it for months now and can't play without it. The Odd CS gets taken but the majority remain in the game even when surrounded

 

[Kyro]

Let me add another to describe the desperation of defending City States from allies:

That's Chandragupta besieging Preslav with machine guns and me besieging his besiegement.