Evidence for creationism

[Gangor]

Since of course, our flawed human perspective means carbon-dating is grossly misinterpreted to mean the world is billions of years old.

I'm no creationist, but I do know that carbon dating is only accurate in the order of thousands of years, not even millions, let alone billions. You have to look at other isotopes to get better dates. Only trouble is, these techniques only date rocks, not previously living things, as carbon dating can.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

[Citation sorely needed]

I know what nonsense he's referring to and I am a lesser man with that knowledge, since I know I belong to the same species. Maybe it's best to smile, nod and back away slowly to the door on this one

 

[Arakhor]

I'm no creationist, but I do know that carbon dating is only accurate in the order of thousands of years, not even millions, let alone billions. You have to look at other isotopes to get better dates. Only trouble is, these techniques only date rocks, not previously living things, as carbon dating can.

Please post some corroborating information from a reliable source, then we can all learn something.

 

[Berzerker]

you need corroboration on the limited timeframe for carbon dating? I'll corroborate that its good up to ~35,000 years

 

[El_Machinae]

Unfortunately, the best youtube video explaining carbon dating has too much swearing to link to.
We should ask potholer54 to make a 'clean' version.

 

[Arakhor]

I understand the principle of carbon dating, just not any of the specifics. Still, 35,000 years (back to before the last Ice Age and contemporary with Neanderthals) should be enough to disprove YEC.

 

[Berzerker]

YEC creationists dismiss dating methods that conflict with their religion, but Genesis conflicts with their religion too

 

[Akka]

It is straight - the ability to choose is pointless without choices.

Letting Satan run amock gives those choices - one can go to Satan, to him, or neither.

What part of "No, free will is letting people making their own informed decision, not trying to trip them down and punish them for it if they do. Get your logic straight." escapes you ?
The fact that people can still make choices without someone trying to actively make them fall into a trap, or the fact that if you love people, you don't try to mislead them ?
Your logic is still as failing as before.

Even so, he'd interfere with free choices if he interfered in the world, since if everything was peachy-keen and his presence well-known, we'd all be faithful. God wants us to be good, but he wants us to be able to choose not to at the same time. A bit of a moral dilemma maybe, but there you go.

You, again, completely miss the point. If God created life and the rest, he's the one who created the need for lifeforms to prey on each others, to kills each others and the like. Why a benevolent God would requires his creations to murder and eat each others, rather than getting their energy purely from the sun and minerals ?

That's called a contradiction, and that shows a logical error. Either God is not as benevolent (he created beings that need to kill each others), or he's not omnipotent/omniscient (he couldn't make it so).

I also have a suggestion: perhaps you could be a little less insulting?

Your logic fails. That's not an insult, that's a fact. Your reasoning are not making sense and you miss the basic premisses. It's not MY fault if YOU make basic logical errors.
It's up to you to think things through and correct your errors, or to feel insulted and keep your faulty reasonings.

Free will and all, you see ?

 

[MagisterCultuum]

The bible does call the devil the god of this world.

I think the traditional view though is that his power is but a usurpation of human dominion over the earth, through the manipulation of human society.

 

[El_Machinae]

I don't know if that could be called the traditional view. Nearly every denomination that I can think of has the devil doing magicy-powers stuff.

Yeah, the Bible certainly suggests that the devil has powers and dominion on Earth.

 

[Whiskey_Lord]

I actually heard a YEC presenter at a conference call carbon dating "voodoo science." Can't remember the guy's name though.

 

[Methos]

What's interesting to consider is how does the devil/satan have authority over this world? As I already mentioned, G_d gave authority to man, so how did it transfer to the devil/satan? Its an interesting thing to contemplate.

While the Bible does indicate in several places that the devil/satan has autority over this world, I tend to find most Christians get upset when its mentioned. They seem to believe G_d and/or Jesus rules this world. This is just a personal observation though.

 

[Whiskey_Lord]

I view it as more of a de facto authority because humanity has rejected God and chosen sin (Satan's influence).

 

[Berzerker]

What's interesting to consider is how does the devil/satan have authority over this world?

Because God/Jesus aint here... That leaves "fallen angels" who were kicked out of Heaven. Thats the argument used by the Armenian sect, Satan is nearby and wields power. It aint like they're Satan worshipers, its more like how people in antiquity had totems or "good luck charms" to ward off evil spirits, or even prayer to be left alone. I think thats their context, and maybe even Satan can do occasional "good deeds"

As I already mentioned, G_d gave authority to man, so how did it transfer to the devil/satan? Its an interesting thing to contemplate.

We were given dominion over the critters, whatever that means. Top of the food chain? Smarts? Now we could get into the issue of why Satan rebelled etc, the fallen angels were pissed off about serving us. I have my doubts about that stuff, the Serpent and Garden has its origin with the Sumerians and they paint a very illuminating picture of this relationship between God and Satan that aint really about us.

While the Bible does indicate in several places that the devil/satan has autority over this world, I tend to find most Christians get upset when its mentioned. They seem to believe G_d and/or Jesus rules this world. This is just a personal observation though.

Ultimately Jesus/God does, or will, so the story goes...

a personal observation, people who are upset by their religion should find a new one
Religion should be uplifting, not a source of despair...

 

[The_People]

The almighty gods of old and new need not our puny human "dating methods" to prove their work, nor do they need any one backing up their claim. All the gods need is at least one person to acknowledge their existence and they shall be appeased. All hail to the gods of old and new, if not may your soul burn with relentless disharmony and your bones crushed by the mighty anguish of the gods!

 

[Tani Coyote]

The fact that people can still make choices without someone trying to actively make them fall into a trap, or the fact that if you love people, you don't try to mislead them ?

God doesn't mislead anyone.

He merely allows Satan to exist, who therefore can tempt humanity. God tries to show humanity the path, but he will not force anyone to take it. Satan is stronger on Earth because of all the deals and pleasures he can give you, but it is short-term; God's power is beyond the mortal plane, with eternal bliss being his reward. You are likely to endure much hardship in life, but just as savings for retirement reward you, "investments" in God reward you far more than any short fix from the Devil ever could.

God's love includes even the Devil it may seem - just as we humans punish murderers, many don't go so far as to advocate destroying them, only locking them up. God therefore lets him live. God's love for us extends to how he tries and tries to get us to follow the right way... but at the same time, that love gives him a dilemma: he must allow us to retain our free will as well.

To kill the Devil, or to strip us of our free will, would violate his love. He locks Satan up because he needs help, and it's the best God can do without killing one of his own children. As for why God allows Satan's influence to escape... I imagine it goes back to him providing choices for us.

You, again, completely miss the point. If God created life and the rest, he's the one who created the need for lifeforms to prey on each others, to kills each others and the like. Why a benevolent God would requires his creations to murder and eat each others, rather than getting their energy purely from the sun and minerals ?

Now this I have no idea on. But assuming Creationism didn't happen, except the first forms of life, then he is not to blame: evolution is. Evolution transformed the primitive lifeforms into predatorial beasts. Perhaps God's respect for free will extended to even the natural processes.

As I already mentioned, G_d gave authority to man, so how did it transfer to the devil/satan?

God gave us freedom of action and thought. At the same time, he allows Satan to influence us. Because humans are so prone to this temptation, Satan, by extension, "rules" the world.

While the Bible does indicate in several places that the devil/satan has autority over this world, I tend to find most Christians get upset when its mentioned. They seem to believe G_d and/or Jesus rules this world. This is just a personal observation though.

People do selectively choose which passages to follow from my personal observation.

Though it would make the most sense: sin is associated with mortal life, and it is Satan's influence. Satan "ruling" the mortal plane, through his influence on humanity, therefore, is perfectly logical. But he is a regent who rules at the discretion of his King - God. God could toast him at any time.

 

[holy king]

/oh brother.

I would appreciate it if you would ease up on referring to my faith largely as 'mythology'. As a practicing christian, its more than a little insulting to me to be honest. Its gotten to the point that even though I am not a biblical literalist, its crossing the line. Give it a break.

i would appreciate it if you would stop refering to communism as evil and something that needs to be fought against.
it is my ideology and i very much would like you to respect it as viable economic and political system.

thanks.

 

[Akka]

God doesn't mislead anyone.

He merely allows Satan to exist, who therefore can tempt humanity.

So he does try to mislead, by using someone else to act as the tempter.
Not only misleading, but manipulating.

All the free will argument just fall flat, because, yet again and again and again, free will doesn't require a tempter. I can make choices without someone trying to mislead me.
It's becoming a bit tiring to repeat it constantly, and to see you IGNORE IT constantly.

Now this I have no idea on. But assuming Creationism didn't happen, except the first forms of life, then he is not to blame: evolution is. Evolution transformed the primitive lifeforms into predatorial beasts. Perhaps God's respect for free will extended to even the natural processes.

Free will to a process ? That's nonsensical.
God, supposedly omniscient, creating a mechanism FEEDING on death and pain ? Directly contradict God's supposed omniscience. If he's omniscient and omnipotent, he could have created an universe where evolution don't lead to preying on each others.

 

[luke2345]

Darwin said on his death bed that he was wrong

 

[Miles Teg]

No, he really, really, really didn't.

I keep telling myself that you can be a committed creationist without being an idiot, but when the claims are this obviously, mind-bendingly wrong I find it difficult. For the sake of the God you believe in, use freaking Google before you open your mouth!