Ex-Security Chiefs Turn on Sharon

[Ahmad]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A42821-2003Nov14.html

"We must once and for all admit that there is another side, that it has feelings and that it is suffering, and that we are behaving disgracefully," said Avraham Shalom, who headed the security service from 1980 until 1986. "Yes, there is no other word for it: disgracefully. . . . We have turned into a people of petty fighters using the wrong tools."
...
"Why is it that everyone -- [Shin Bet] directors, chief of staff, former security personnel -- after a long service in security organizations become the advocates of reconciliation with the Palestinians? Because they were there." said Yaakov Perry, whose term as security chief between 1988 and 1995 covered the first Palestinian uprising, or intifada. "We know the material, the people in the field, and surprisingly, both sides."


I'm interested in the Israeli reaction to this. They pretty much spoke against all major Israeli policies including the jewish settlements, the wall, the occupation, the treatment of the palestinians, etc. And these guys headed security from 1980 to 2000 so it's not like they don't have credibility.

 

[Akka]

They must be anti-semitic.

 

[Mario Feldberg]

I doubt that this will change anything.

Whatever, long live Israel.

 

[Pongui]

Originally posted by Ahmad
I'm interested in the Israeli reaction to this.

Officially, the statements are "ignorant".

 

[G-Man]

Israel has the IDF, the mossad, the GSS, and dozens of units in each of them. Chances are that among the hundreds of retired security chiefs you'll have people with all sorts of political opinions. You would've needed a lot more than a single article to quote the many ex-security chiefs who do support Sharon.

 

[IceBlaZe]

Most of them are not identified with the left.
Whatever they say, it has a lot of weight.

 

[G-Man]

Originally posted by IceBlaZe
Most of them are not identified with the left.

They are now

 

[IceBlaZe]

They are now

Not to me. They didn't say they support any leftist political group, or that they'll support any leftist leader. They simply expressed their recognition of the situation. A rightist can have some common sense aswell (at times).
Do you consider Gen. Yaalon a leftist?

 

[Richard III]

Yeah, I tried to start a thread on this and accidently put it in the WH forum. My point being that it shows all those naysayers who thought that Israeli security chiefs "couldn't be heard unless they were in uniform" that retired officers can exercise their free speech just fine, thank you.

That said, they're right, of course, but 720 threads in CFC aren't going to convince anyone of that.

R.III

 

[G-Man]

Originally posted by IceBlaZe


Not to me. They didn't say they support any leftist political group, or that they'll support any leftist leader.

No, but they have supported the left winged opinion, and this is what matters here.

Originally posted by IceBlaZe
They simply expressed their recognition of the situation.

Which is a left winged one.

Originally posted by IceBlaZe
A rightist can have some common sense aswell (at times).

I suppose they can. So?

Originally posted by IceBlaZe
Do you consider Gen. Yaalon a leftist?

No, but that's because the things he say are right winged in nature.

 

[Richard III]

G-Man, busy "playing the man and not the ball."

Last week, they were just bad ideas. But this week, with several more people expressing them, they're left-wing ideas. As one brilliant column I once read put it: "so-and-so was accused of having 'a political agenda.' Oh, lord no, not POLITICS!" As though having a left-wing opinion suddenly means "invalid," or "not worth rebutting."

R.III

 

[G-Man]

Originally posted by Richard III
G-Man, busy "playing the man and not the ball."

Last week, they were just bad ideas. But this week, with several more people expressing them, they're left-wing ideas. As one brilliant column I once read put it: "so-and-so was accused of having 'a political agenda.' Oh, lord no, not POLITICS!" As though having a left-wing opinion suddenly means "invalid," or "not worth rebutting."

R.III

I didn't criticize the fact that they're left winged, I just pointed it out in response to what IceBlaZe said:
"Most of them are not identified with the left."

 

[Richard III]

Sorry, I took

"They simply expressed their opinion of the situation - which was a left-winged one" as being a critique, in the absence of other supporting statements like "which was a thoughtless one," or "which was foolish when the issue of Hamas is considered," etc.

Let's assume they're all commies, for the sake of the argument, and move on. Commie bastids...

 

[IceBlaZe]

G-Man, what is leftist about their opinions? The fact that they recognize the Palestinians to be suffering aswell and humans aswell?

 

[Richard III]

Originally posted by IceBlaZe
G-Man, what is leftist about their opinions? The fact that they recognize the Palestinians to be suffering aswell and humans aswell?

Ouch.

 

[IceBlaZe]

Well, some of their opinions are "left" in nature, such as anti-settlement. Though, I think they spoke not out of political opinion but out of despair. They know as we know that the current Israeli policies lead to nothing but hell, just as the Palestinian policies.

 

[G-Man]

Originally posted by IceBlaZe
G-Man, what is leftist about their opinions? The fact that they recognize the Palestinians to be suffering aswell and humans aswell?

No, the fact that they express opinions associated with the Israeli left. From the article:
"...said that Israel must end its occupation of the West Bank and Gaza Strip, that the government should recognize that no peace agreement can be reached without the involvement of the Palestinian leader, Yasser Arafat..."

In the original article you can find more such examples.

Also, Ami Ayalon is strongly identified with the Israeli left, and Carmi Gillon was appointed by Rabin and is today the head of "The Peres peace institution".

 

[G-Man]

Originally posted by IceBlaZe
Well, some of their opinions are "left" in nature, such as anti-settlement. Though, I think they spoke not out of political opinion but out of despair. They know as we know that the current Israeli policies lead to nothing but hell, just as the Palestinian policies.

The reasons they made this are irrelevant. The fact is that they have expressed left winged opinions, because these are their opinions on what should be done.

 

[IceBlaZe]

The reasons they made this are irrelevant to who/what?

 

[G-Man]

Originally posted by IceBlaZe
The reasons they made this are irrelevant to who/what?

The reasons are irrelevant when deciding if their opinions are left winged or not. Removing settlments, ending occupation and negotiating with Arafat are left winged opinions, regardless of the reasons they were expressed.