Examining the Golden Dawn party

[Kyriakos]

This is not really a thread about the economic crisis, so do not be off-topic. It is not even primarily about the comming Greek elections. It is, however, about the party known as Golden Dawn, and the reputation it got.

Lately i was examining some videos of them and it took me by surprise that they are not nearly the nutjob thugs they were presented to be. Granted, they have a more civilized front, but it is somewhat peculiar that they got massively branded as neo-nazi by both Greek and many other european media. They themselves have issued a laconic ( ) statement claiming that they are nothing of the kind, and in fact are against nazism.

Their spokesperson seems to be bright and logical (although i can not know if his inner logic is different than that shown in the media he has been appearing in). Their leader is a strange figure, but again i did not know nearly anything of him. The moto "For a new Spartan Hellenism" seems to be great for picking up hostility, but is it really that bad by itself?

Anyway, polls show them losing around half of their power, but it should be noted that they are a special case, since most people would not admit to wanting to vote for them after the media campaign against them. I am not claiming that said media campaign was always intentional; but i am indeed claiming that there is more to investigate about this party.

While generally they were seen as a one-issue party, it does seem that they have other points to pass across, although- again - this may be a facade.

Personally i would not vote for them, since they are tainted with this image, be it real or not, but i am beginning to not view them as a monster in the closet (or out of the closet and into the Boule). They do seem to have some similar points as the now doomed Laos party.

A note: If you want to participate in the thread you should keep in mind that

-the point of it is to present an attempt to find something perhaps closer to the truth regarding this party. I am the first who holds the perception that it may still be hiding sceletons, but on the other hand the attack on it was way too homogenous to be ignored as mere dissinformation (unless the level of journalism in the rest of Europe is on par with most of it here).

-The point of the thread is definately not to engage in a braindead accusation of who is and who is not a neo-nazi. However, educated remarks on the possible extreme nature of Golden Dawn are welcome, as long as they are efficiently researched.

-I state again that i am not well-versed in this party, and was led to believe it was something horrible from the start, much near neo-nazis in its blind hatred etc. But it does seem that this is probably not the case.

 

[Masada]

If mining the border and deporting all immigrants isn't extreme right wing politics in Greece, I shudder to think what regular old right wing Greek politics is like.

The moto "For a new Spartan Hellenism" seems to be great for picking up hostility, but is it really that bad by itself?

I would have thought the closest thing to an ancient Police State would suggest how awful a party that had that as a motto was.

 

[Kyriakos]

Really? I guess you never heard of selective use of known terms for reason of creating soundbites. In fact mentioning Sparta (which btw was far more than a police state) got them instant airplay, which i trust is most of what they wanted.

Also nice try on making a strawman, but your strawman is on fire (probably commited suicide due to its insignificance ) since they are not for deporting all immigrants, merely illegal immigrants, and last time i checked this is a position of most right parties.
As for mines in the border, got a source? Or is it just another piece of hay to you.

 

[Ajidica]

Rule of thumb: whenever a group has to say they are against Nazism, red flags start appearing. I mean, do non-nutjob political parties have to issue statements saying they are 'against nazism'?

 

[Kyriakos]

Rule of thumb: whenever a group has to say they are against Nazism, red flags start appearing. I mean, do non-nutjob political parties have to issue statements saying they are 'against nazism'?

No, but then again if a party is met with colossal accusation of being pro nazi then i do not see what else they could do.

 

[Ajidica]

And why were they called 'pro-nazi'?

 

[Kyriakos]

That is a very good question. But keep in mind that even Laos was called a fascist party, or extreme right-wing (something it denied being). Generally there is widespread stigma for being on the right in Greece, although it is a more complicated phenomenon than mere tradition, or history; it mostly appears to have to do with phobia of being seen as intolerant in a society which has little common ground anymore sadly.

I think GD got their reputation for being pro-nazi due to some voters of theirs who took part in fights against anarchists in the center of Athens. But even that is open to speculation. Generally it seems there is more to them than that, although i still think their 7% was mostly down to the anti-illegal immigration high tones.

 

[Tee Kay]

As for mines in the border, got a source? Or is it just another piece of hay to you.

Link to video.

 

[Kyriakos]

Well the fact that the spokesman in the video said that "it is the first time a neo-nazi group gets elected to parliament after 1974, the junta" should tell you that this person is an idiot. The junta did not get elected, and neither was it neo-nazi. It was a group of military people who illegally seized control of the country.

So if that is the level of researching the issue i am not really convinced about the mines. As to Michaloliakos (GD leader) he is clearly a man who is not a trained politician, and evidently has crude ways of expressing himself. I already mentioned in my op that i find him to be strange, and it is part of the reason i would not dream of voting for his party. But his strange voice, and simple words hardly are in line with the nazi presentation in the story.

 

[Ajidica]

You didn't find the comment that he wants to 'get the dirt out of the country' (or something to that effect) resemble Nazism just a little bit?
Unless Greece happens to have huge piles of soil just lying around in the middle of the streets, in which case I support him in getting the dirt out of the country.

 

[Kyriakos]

You didn't find the comment that he wants to 'get the dirt out of the country' (or something to that effect) resemble Nazism just a little bit?
Unless Greece happens to have huge piles of soil just lying around in the middle of the streets, in which case I support him in getting the dirt out of the country.

If these were his own words then he clearly does not think very straight. That is a horrible parallelism. But i am not sure he meant people by that. Would it not seem a bit too idiotic, let alone insane?

Generally i can see how one can say "get the dirt out of my country" and mean "get everything horrible out, solve all issues" etc. I do not see it as a tautology with "kick all illegals out", which they are saying, but not presenting them as dirt, which obviously would signify not logic but irrational hatred.

 

[Truronian]

Their flag is eerily reminiscent of the Nazi Swastika...

 

[Ajidica]

signify not logic but irrational hatred

Which is pretty much standard for neo-nazi groups. If it had just been the dirt statement it could very easily be a slip of the tongue or poor phrasing. However, when looked at in context it fits in neatly with the standard operating style of neo-nazi groups.
Furthermore, I see no reason to give a group that advocates neo-nazi policies (even if they aren't explicitly neo-nazi themselves) any benefit of the doubt.

 

[Kyriakos]

Do they advocate neo-nazi policies though? I think they have denied this. So sources would be needed.

I recall when a few years back, in Austria, Heider (spelling?) got elected by a percentage much larger than 7%. He had indeed said that some of hitler's policies were positive. Although he was ousted as a pan-european reactionary development, i think it is fair that his political career got damaged since hailing nazi policies as good is to be held in contempt, but one should note if the policies themselves are typically nazi.

@Truronian: given their ancient greek rhetoric i am pretty sure their emblem is based on some ancient greek motif. I will try to find something about it.

 

[Arakhor]

They sound very similar to the BNP, who are more than happy to assure you that they too aren't Nazis.

 

[Kyriakos]

Seems likely, since they are a nationalist (ethnikistiko, which has a history as a term*) party too.

*"We are nationalists" was a quote by some of the leaders of the Greek revolution of 1821. The term in Greek has both negative and positive connotation. The negative one is similar to fascism. The positive is simply patriotic, or rather passionately patriotic. I noticed that in some links of GD their self-proffessed nationalism is mentioned, so i thought i would give some reason why this would be so, although obviously politically it was a very bad move (unless it was very smart indeed) to phrase it that way.

 

[Ajidica]

Do they advocate neo-nazi policies though?

I would think that wanting to retake Greece 'for the Greeks' and 'kick out the dirt', along with wanting to place mines along the Turkish border and a whole host of nutjob far-right proposals would indicate that despite what they say, at best their proposals bear a disturbing similarity to neo-nazi policies.

 

[Kyriakos]

Personally i am not sure, but this is going in circles. The mines- true or not? evidence? Greece for Greeks- well, there are 2 million illegals (in a country of 11 million legals), so it is not a very right-wing policy to want most or all (rhetoric) of them out.
The dirt part i replied to, giving my opinnion on what it could mean. I did not hear it from them, their spokesperson has a (facade?) civilized image and tone:


Link to video.

And don't ask which one he is, surely he is the one on the right

 

[kronic]

Well, I tried to raise the question whether they were really Nazi in the other thread as well. They clearly use Nazi symbols but their policy positions seem not to be particularly Nazi but rather ordinary far right.

 

[Leoreth]

*"We are nationalists" was a quote by some of the leaders of the Greek revolution of 1821. The term in Greek has both negative and positive connotation. The negative one is similar to fascism. The positive is simply patriotic, or rather passionately patriotic. I noticed that in some links of GD their self-proffessed nationalism is mentioned, so i thought i would give some reason why this would be so, although obviously politically it was a very bad move (unless it was very smart indeed) to phrase it that way.

Having your mindset stuck in the early 19th century isn't a very good sign either.